chalk or limestone everywhere is better...

[Streetwind]

I'm in a claystone area, and I've found a surface borax deposit. It was reasonably obvious, as it has white flecks that stand out quite well in most types of surface rocks. Looks somewhat similar to quartz bits, even - so if you come across white-flecked stones and think "bah, quartz again"... do check anyway, just to be sure. It might be borax.

My prospecting pick is also indicating chances for underground deposits, so it can spawn as a deep ore as well. The wiki must be outdated in that regard.

[radfast]

In game Borax is found underground but not too deep (around y == 90-100 I think) - in a layer similar to Quartz, but not as common.

I haven't had any problems finding limestone or chalk - there are some Limestone + Bauxite hills where it is easily visible, and there are whole regions made of chalk or limestone as the surface rock (with chalk and limestone sands and gravels to match, and all surface stones are chalk or limestone) - very easy to see.  You just have to travel, instead of staying within 500 blocks of your base.  I had to travel around 3000 blocks to find chalk, but that's easily done in 1 day if you don't do anything else.

-----

IRL Borax is not a source of lime - it is used in leather-manufacturing for the initial soak (in effect as a preservative), but liming is still then required - so this seems a strange choice by the devs.  Borax does have one very interesting use though - it lowers the melting temperature of other metals so that it can be used in gold mining - it increases efficiency through allowing mining products to be smelted even in low temperature, portable furnaces.  Environmental campaigners support this method for gold mining, over the alternative mercury-based methods which result in toxic pollution.  

Edited April 19, 2020 by radfast

[redram]

1 hour ago, Streetwind said:

My prospecting pick is also indicating chances for underground deposits, so it can spawn as a deep ore as well. The wiki must be outdated in that regard.

The wiki is sort of misleading, having two separate categories.  In code, there's no separation between 'shallow' and 'deep' ores.  There are two kinds of 'surface deposit' - copper and cassiterite that are specifically extremely shallow, and these are not reflected on the propick.    ALL other ores and deposits just have a y range, and a 'leaves surface nuggets yes/no' setting.  They will show up on the propick unless specifically excluded from the propick (lapis, quartz, etc).  The chart would probably be more understandable if they were combined, and add a column 'leaves loose ores'.    Because leaving loose ore traces is a bit arbitrary right now, in that some ores are programmed to do so, and some not.  It makes sense for ores whose max y limit is like, 85 or below, to not have a surface ore chance.   But some, like all 3 irons, and sphalerite, could in theory perhaps  generate close enough to leave nuggets on the ground, but yet their json does not allow for it.  This may be an oversight...

[David Arriola]

Limestone and borax feel very common in my game, You just have bad World Gen Seeds and are unlucky. I can travel one map distance in any direction and find some amounts of borax or lime stone. The only thing more common is Quartz. I have over 100 hours in my current world, I feel that if you can not be bothered to spend 1-2 hours exploring them perhaps you should play a "Creative Rule set" for the game. Exploration is kinda a core part for these style of games and spending a game day hunting around for that one missing block is kinda normal.

[Magitex]

I agree with David in that you don't want everything available in your immediate surroundings, you want players to venture out of their usual surroundings, explore and set up multiple workshops to keep the game interesting. I understand that it can be frustrating if you are pegged on needing a specific resource, but these resources are usually not 'required' for survival and should be traded for if possible. You can't always work iron or work with leather, conversely you may be able to work with things that other players cannot in one game. If we could get more depth into alternatives so we're able to specialize production that would be great.

For instance, weaving flax alternatives for armor or other textiles which don't make quality leather armor, but we can still use metal plating (or perhaps focus on making superior metals) to make up for the loss of flexibility etc.

It's rather difficult to balance but I feel that rarity of resources is important for Vintage Story's survival gameplay.

[radfast]

2 hours ago, Magitex said:

I agree with David in that you don't want everything available in your immediate surroundings, you want players to venture out of their usual surroundings, explore and set up multiple workshops to keep the game interesting. I understand that it can be frustrating if you are pegged on needing a specific resource, but these resources are usually not 'required' for survival and should be traded for if possible. You can't always work iron or work with leather, conversely you may be able to work with things that other players cannot in one game. If we could get more depth into alternatives so we're able to specialize production that would be great.

For instance, weaving flax alternatives for armor or other textiles which don't make quality leather armor, but we can still use metal plating (or perhaps focus on making superior metals) to make up for the loss of flexibility etc.

It's rather difficult to balance but I feel that rarity of resources is important for Vintage Story's survival gameplay.

+1 for this.

I wrote about the linear tech tree here.   Totally agree it could be excellent if the player is forced (by limited resources) to choose one of several paths and specialise.

IRL, in the feudal period chainmail was often worn over a quilted/padded jacket made of linen (sometimes stuffed with hay for padding) -> so I think this should certainly be an option in place of a leather armour base.  It could be an easy mod for someone?

Edited April 20, 2020 by radfast

[redram]

padded jerkins and such as an option to leather for starting chainmail is already planned, and was planned from the start, and we already have the art assets.   They didn't quite make it in under the wire at the end of the armor update.   Be aware, that after seasons the linen situation is probably going to be drastically different.  It's pretty easy to just churn out lots of flax right now, but after seasons you'll probably get one crop a year, in temperate climates.  So the choice might not be as attractive.

[AlteOgre]

I agree with the main sentiment that it can be quite devastating for 'unlucky' player experiences that some specifically valuable rock types are hard to find. But I do support the main starting points related to survival and exploration, based on the realistic approach of the game. So, I'd not support a major change. Instead, in order to improve the average player experience (some get lucky, some don't), I would propose is to just tweak the occurence and average area coverage of instances of chalk, limestone and halite. Make their deposits occur a tad more frequent (a tad less rare) compared to other sedimentary resp. special deposits, but also reduce their deposit area/volume sizes, so their overall global average relative presence isn't affected.

[hron84]

I'm a relative new player but I played minecraft and TerrafirmaCraft enough to get some experience this type of progression. I think small patches of Chalk/Limestone in all biomes with an uncommon or rare occurrence could solve this issue (like how peat/clay spawns, but much less common and could be covered by soil). Also like how ores spawn, there could be a hint by a chalk/lime rock on it.

It could solve the "luck" issue with this. 

[Bladimiro Herrero]

I said it before and I will say it again, make the game to difficult and you will only scare new players away, just do like 7DTD add the options on the create new world menu, is not difficult and it will let different style players play their own way, I know I used to modify the files before starting a game, not so much now since  the options are in the start menu ( thank you Tyron and the rest of the team), I want to see the game modders explode with new ideas, that is one of the reasons I am a Minecraft addict still, to the detriment of the rest of my games in my Library.

This game is Beautiful, and I will be playing and recommending it to friends for many years to come.

Peace and love. . .real or imagined.

[Gazz]

I don't understand this discussion. Limestone is the most common "rare" resource. It already is everywhere.
There is no luck involved.

If there is any water around you at all, you have lime.
Dig up the muddy gravel underwater and process it with a bucket.
You got limestone.

For leather making you don't need thousands.

Finding oaks can take a while but lime is incredibly easy to get.

Edited October 2, 2020 by Gazz

[Streetwind]

43 minutes ago, Gazz said:

Dig up the muddy gravel underwater and process it with a bucket.
You got limestone.

...unless that was changed in 1.13, and I'm pretty sure it wasn't because I stalk the changelogs, that my good sir is a mod

Namely Lazy Warlock's Tweaks.

[redram]

Streetwind is correct Gazz, what you're talking about is a mod.   In vanilla you can't pan muddy gravel at all, for anything.  Regular sand and gravel  only return stones of the stone type they already are, in vanilla.  So in vanilla you can only pan limestone from limestone sand or gravel.  And that means you already found a limestone biome and don't need to pan for it anyway.

[Gazz]

Oh. I had no idea that was in there.

I don't use a lot of mods and even from the ones I do use I tend to strip the "Eh, don't care" features.

[Rasp Sunwater]

I just spent my whole day--a real-life day, not in-game day--searching and searching for borax and limestone, to no avail. Tens of thousands of blocks traveled, far far from home. Exploring is my favorite thing to do in games, but even I have my limits. I got so exhausted I had to stop. I didn't want to use commands in this game, but with the ridiculous distance away from home I've ended up traveling on this fruitless search, I'll have to tp myself back if I don't want to spend a whole season doing nothing other than running over terrain.

Weirdly enough, I haven't seen a single mushroom on this whole playthrough, either. Wonder what's up with that.

[Ryan Medina]

I can't find Limestone or Halite at all. I have looked in each direction from spawn at least 3k blocks and still nothing. I have look for over 6 hours IRL and I'm beginning to be a bit burnt out.

[redram]

Halite is difficult to find.  You won't usually find it just running around, or glancing down caves.  You'll need to use the propick, and then do some cave searching in a high chance area.    Limestone (and chalk) only occur in the top (sedimentary) layers, so is they are easier to find running around, or looking down caves.   It helps to be aware that there can be multiple sedimentary layers at once, and so even if the top sedimentary layer is not limestone, there could be limestone underneath.  Also, basalt can be above *any* rock type (it represents a geologically recent eruption of lava).   So you can also find limestone beneath basalt.   But if your top layer is igneous or metamorphic, there is 0 chance of limestone or chalk in that area.

Several traders will sell you salt, so not being able to find halite isn't the end of the world.  Especially in a single player game, you don't really need it at all.  

I think commodity and maybe one or two other traders will sell you lime, but you do need lime in fairly large quantity to get steel (for the mortar), so it's more important than halite.

[RobinHood]

Maybe we could implement Pointer Plants. Pointer plants e.g. for alkalik soils are these:

meadow cranesbill, hollow tooth, meadow sage and pansy. Field bellflowers, delphinium, liverwort, corn poppy, dead nettle, chicory, pasque flower and milkweed flourish magnificently.
Maybe I should write to this in Suggestions-Forum? Adding some PointerPlants?

There are even PointerPlants for ores - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallophyte

 

Quote

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

 

Jump to navigation Jump to search

A metallophyte is a plant that can tolerate high levels of heavy metals such as lead. Such plants range between "obligate metallophytes" (which can only survive in the presence of these metals), and "facultative metallophytes" which can tolerate such conditions but are not confined to them.^[1]

European examples include alpine pennycress (Thlaspi caerulescens), the zinc violet (Viola calaminaria), spring sandwort (Minuartia verna), sea thrift (Armeria maritima), Cochlearia, common bent (Agrostis capillaris) and plantain (Plantago lanceolata).^[2] Few metallophytes are known from Latin America.^[3]

Metallophytes commonly exist as specialised flora found on spoil heaps of mines.

Such plants have potential for use for phytoremediation of contaminated ground.

 

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by RobinHood

[Thalius]

4 hours ago, RobinHood said:

Maybe we could implement Pointer Plants. Pointer plants e.g. for alkalik soils are these:

meadow cranesbill, hollow tooth, meadow sage and pansy. Field bellflowers, delphinium, liverwort, corn poppy, dead nettle, chicory, pasque flower and milkweed flourish magnificently.
Maybe I should write to this in Suggestions-Forum? Adding some PointerPlants?

There are even PointerPlants for ores - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallophyte

Personally I think this would be a brilliant addition to the game, especially given that these types of plants actually exist.

I'd not recommend we get pointer plants for all ores and minerals, but it could not hurt to add plants that hinted at or confirmed the presence of minerals and ores in an area. 

Perhaps in a chunk that has a high or ultra chance of containing an ore, we can find a certain plant type growing sparsely in the area, since the plant prefers or maybe requires that ore or mineral in the soil in order to grow well. 

Or maybe a pointer plant is of a type that can grow anywhere, but grows more densely in an area that has a high chance of containing an ore deposit that the plant prefers. If we learn which plants prefer which ores, we'd have the option to keep our eyes open when traveling out and about, and pay particular attention when we come across regions more densely populated with a particular plant species.  One could then go to work with the pro pick to determine the best place to set a shaft.

This could be a lot of fun, and would bring a certain additional depth to the game world.

I recommend a suggestion post for this, RobinHood.

Edited April 4, 2021 by Thalius

[Shinohakobita]

For those needing lime just for leatherworking, do not forget about the sea shells.  You can grind those to make your lime water.  Not viable for large operations but in the beginning can get you to larger backpacks faster.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Shinohakobita

[Brynn Bernstein]

I think an important thing for people saying just change your seed to remember is that by the time people are able to explore out for thousands of blocks to get lime, they are very attached to their world usually. They may have a home built that they don't want to leave, or many hours of progress, or a server setup where they are not the only one who gets to decide whether or not to change the seed. Also, under the settings I use (and I think this is default) a single set of layers (say, basalt, claystone,  peridotite, granite, which I think is what is on the server I'm on with my partner) can be the mostly the same for thousands of blocks.

Also I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but before leather (and iron) I can go maybe 3,000 blocks without dying, with my running speed set to maximum. After that length my health and hunger are low and I get killed by drifters or wolves.

Maybe there could be a setting in world generation to increase the odds for a stone layer to be lime or chalk if it already has the possibility to be? privileging lime and chalk over other sedimentary stones. Maybe bauxite too. No one would force you to use it to make it more likely to get chalk/lime by your house if you prefer an exploratory playstyle, but VS can support lots of different playstyles and an exploratory playstyle is not necessarily better than a non-exploratory playstyle.

One of the things I love about VS is that in general you can make a home anywhere and support it with local resources, and chalk/lime having the possibility not to spawn within three thousand blocks XY of spawn (I checked in a copy of my server world) is something I would've avoided if I'd had the opportunity.

[Catastrophe]

Chiming in to report on my first world. I explored 3000 blocks south, 1500 blocks west and east (and a bit north of both), and maybe 750 blocks dead north of spawn.

So far I have found no limestone, chalk, or bauxite at all! And my borax has been fairly light. What I have found is endless amounts of conglomerate and granite. Since all I care about right now is bauxite I've started "prospecting" for it. The way I do that is by digging two dirt blocks down, looking at the topmost rock, and running another 200 blocks to repeat the process. Every single time I just find more granite and conglomerate, and I think it would be rare to find bauxite underneath those?

People have suggested changing the rarities of the rocks but I don't think that solves the problem. It just changes how many players will hit a wall and quit when their world is starved of a critical resource. That solution is already used for clay and fire clay (I don't see anyone complaining about those) and I don't want to see exploration totally removed from the game.

Instead I think we need more plan Bs. Which I think fits the survivalist design of the game - make do with what you have. Maybe lime is the easiest way to make fast leather, but if you can't find it and you don't want to strip mine a beach then maybe wood ash can get the job done and it just takes longer. No one wants to build a bloomery or charcoal pit (basically) to make leather so that's your motivation to look for lime first. Likewise for the steel problem I'm currently facing there's got to be another way. I don't know anything about historical steel making but I can't believe bauxite is strictly required. Maybe bauxite makes fancy refactory bricks with 90/95/100% durability, but could granite bricks also work with 50% durability? I mean if I can make the coffin in the center of the cementation furnace out of granite then why not? I also have enough iron to build the walls of the furnace out of iron plates, which is ridiculous. So why not let me? When life gives you lemons make lemonade.

 

[Silent Shadow]

Check this out for finding limestone/chalk

 

[Jessica O.]

Honestly, I found that for a simple SIngle player game for me and maybe 1 or 2 friends a 10k by 10k world with an equator distance of 5k gave us lots of small cozy "biomes" and made the pace of exploration very fast. No trouble finding stuff really. (from the top of a hill I can see 3 different kinds of surface rock in various directions) My world is pretty damn tiny, but I suspect one about twice this size would land a really nice balance between the game's design encouraging us to settle down, and the game's desire/need for us to go out on explorations.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Jessica O.

[Silent Shadow]

Yeah, I think it is a matter of expectations. The game gives you the tools to find most of the stuff in it, but it is not immediately obvious where it all is. I think that as documentation gets better and as the game is refined to match the general expectations that most people seem to have going in, that people will start viewing problems like these as more favorably.