Really questionable changes in 1.22 pre1

[Thorfinn]

4 hours ago, MKMoose said:

Note that hunting being difficult is really not the problem, and I don't even recall seeing a single complaint about it just being difficult. The vast majority of feedback on hunting, for example the above post or this recent post, focuses on it being annoying, unrealistic, unrewarding, janky, unimmersive and a couple other qualities in that vein, if worded more or less subtly.

I didn't say it was difficult. Rather that it's "not that bad". There are lots of things similar. What's "difficult" about calcining flint, for example? Yet there's no end of complaints about it. It's not difficult to prospect, it's just usually time consuming. It's not difficult harvesting sticks, it's just that trees don't drop sticks if you don't harvest the leaves. Nothing difficult about collecting shells. Not like they try to get away or anything. Charcoal pits?

Edited February 11 by Thorfinn

[Urmanin]

5 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

I didn't say it was difficult. Rather that it's "not that bad". There are lots of things similar. What's "difficult" about calcining flint, for example? Yet there's no end of complaints about it. It's not difficult to prospect, it's just usually time consuming. It's not difficult harvesting sticks, it's just that trees don't drop sticks if you don't harvest the leaves. Nothing difficult about collecting shells. Not like they try to get away or anything. Charcoal pits?

A lot of the 1.22 added realism falls off the line of balancing fun and tedium straight into the tedium category.

Hunting in VS is something nobody enjoys because quite frankly trying to chase animals that never tire and are also faster than you gets old extremely fast to put it mildly. There is nothing interesting or engaging about it. Hell, endurance hunting is an unproven and recent theory in real life with no real proof behind it. Hence why people preferred throwing spears, because it's the only semi-reliable hunting method outside of cheese in the game. But as people have known for a while Tyron hates ranged so spears got nerfed. Sure, they claim it'll be adjusted, but the truth is that they shouldn't have been nerfed at all in the first place. It absolutely feels like Tyron wants everyone to use falxes instead of literally anything else despite the weapon being unpopular to say the least. There is no reason a regular sharp sword would somehow be worse at cutting than this falx thing, named after tyron's dear oc donut steel.
You want combat to be realistic? Add more medieval weapon variety, unnerf spears, and buff slings to be much slower but just as powerful as throwing spears, if not more. I've seen someone punch through a metal helmet with a sling, you can't tell me it does little to no damage, that's extremely unrealistic. The reason bows superseded slings was because they were much easier than slings to use, not because they were more powerful or anything, same deal with crossbows and then firearms.

Another thing is quenching and tempering. It sounds fun until you realize you have a chance to break the tool which is enough for me to never engage with those systems.
Grind wheels add critical chance? Who thought that was a good idea? You could have had grinding wheels either restore durability at the cost of maximum total durability or to just increase damage/damage tier at the cost of durability for weapons, but instead you went with the absolute most nonsensical option.
Tongs having durability is something literally 0 people wanted, and if the game insists on being realistic you wouldn't ever need a second pair of tongs as that's not a tool that you would realistically wear out and break over an entire human lifetime. I've also seen that hot food might require tongs to hold now. If that's an actual change, again, you'd have to be demented to add that to the game. Who wanted that? Nobody asked for this.

Farming now requires far larger fields. Sure, if you're playing multiplayer that change may look okay to you since you're not the one doing farming, but if you were in charge of feeding everyone already your workload just doubled for zero benefit, and in singleplayer the amount of tedium just increased, and you now have even less time for other things in the game.

The biggest point against this update was that it was promised to be the mechanical update and instead you get the fishing update + maybe some mechanical stuff on the side if we're lucky.

Changing how mechanical power works before adding reinforced axles is straight up putting the cart before the horse. What this does in essence is force people  to rebuild mechanical setups to be weaker/slower with 0 alternatives to make up for it currently. 
But you can le epic wholesome reddit chungus fish now (which nobody asked for in the promised mechanical update), so that makes it alright or something.

Meanwhile other things remain unfixed or unadded that  would be a cinch to add. Paths and path stairs are still misaligned. You can't mix flour with water in a barrel to reduce tedium. Hell ,the omok pieces that were being sold were straight up wrong for several patches.

I've only played the game since 1.21, and I truly do like the game as it is in 1.21 (with the exception of the entire tower quest which is straight up abysmal to put it very mildly, and 0 people who did it want to ever do it again, to the point that they'd rather disable lore content altogether, and temporal storms which are cool the first time you see it and and then just turn into waste of time afk simulator after) but already I am seeing massive issues with the development process and certain development philosophies of vs, namely the lack of someone who tells the dev team that some changes are straight up bad or unnecessary and a lack of direction/vision for the update pipeline. All of this has happened before and vs seems to, unfortunately, be heading down that road too. Sure, some changes are good or fun, but the bad so far massively outweighs the good. Just like Kojima and George Lucas, Tyron is in a desperate need of someone who stands behind him as he works and periodically hits him with a rolled up newspaper and tells him no. Sure, he made a massive cope post about the second game totally not affecting the development of VS but most changes feel like they did them because they could just copy them to the second game.

Thank god hytale is a thing now at least maybe someone will just mod it to be vs+ eventually, because quite frankly I am finding it really hard to trust that 1.22 onward will be net positive updates to the game and not just more tedium = more hard and tedium = good. Some competition would do the dev team a lot of good.

Edited February 11 by Urmanin

[Urmanin]

To add, saying "you can just mod it out if you don't like it" is just the "mods will fix it" excuse. That's the skyrim defense. I shouldn't ever need mods to fix core issues.

[MKMoose]

4 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

I didn't say it was difficult. Rather that it's "not that bad". There are lots of things similar. What's "difficult" about calcining flint, for example? Yet there's no end of complaints about it. It's not difficult to prospect, it's just usually time consuming. It's not difficult harvesting sticks, it's just that trees don't drop sticks if you don't harvest the leaves. Nothing difficult about collecting shells. Not like they try to get away or anything. Charcoal pits?

I know, but you did say that hunting is "maybe even too easy", which may imply that you're largely reducing the point you're replying to to a matter of difficulty. Difficulty is largely irrelevant, because it can be adjusted almost freely (ideally would be even better if they added a creature loot multiplier config), and what matters most for hunting is that the design as a whole is intuitive, engaging and satisfying.

 

16 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

Another thing is quenching and tempering. It sounds fun until you realize you have a chance to break the tool which is enough for me to never engage with those systems.

Don't discount a system before you even know what it does. 

 

18 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

Tongs having durability is something literally 0 people wanted, and if the game insists on being realistic you wouldn't ever need a second pair of tongs as that's not a tool that you would realistically wear out and break over an entire human lifetime.

Tongs having durability is something "literally everybody" wanted, because handling white-hot metal with wood in the first place is only a bright idea as long as the tongs keep burning.

 

20 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

I've also seen that hot food might require tongs to hold now. If that's an actual change, again, you'd have to be demented to add that to the game.

Try holding a cooking pot fresh off the stove with your bare hands and tell me how that goes for you. There have already been more constructive suggestions to reduce the maximum temperature to which certain meals can be increased and add a special items like a towel that would allow to hold items at up to ~150-200 C or a spoon/ladle that would allow to portion meals from a hot pot.

 

23 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

Changing how mechanical power works before adding reinforced axles is straight up putting the cart before the horse. What this does in essence is force people  to rebuild mechanical setups to be weaker/slower with 0 alternatives to make up for it currently. 

Literally nothing has changed so far in how mechanical power works. It's a work-in-progress, and heat-resistant axles are still in the plans for the update.

[Urmanin]

9 minutes ago, MKMoose said:

I know, but you did say that hunting is "maybe even too easy", which may imply that you're largely reducing the point you're replying to to a matter of difficulty. Difficulty is largely irrelevant, because it can be adjusted almost freely (ideally would be even better if they added a creature loot multiplier config), and what matters most for hunting is that the design as a whole is intuitive, engaging and satisfying.

 

Don't discount a system before you even know what it does. 

 

Tongs having durability is something "literally everybody" wanted, because handling white-hot metal with wood in the first place is only a bright idea as long as the tongs keep burning.

 

Try holding a cooking pot fresh off the stove with your bare hands and tell me how that goes for you. There have already been more constructive suggestions to reduce the maximum temperature to which certain meals can be increased and add a special items like a towel that would allow to hold items at up to ~150-200 C or a spoon/ladle that would allow to portion meals from a hot pot.

 

Literally nothing has changed so far in how mechanical power works. It's a work-in-progress, and heat-resistant axles are still in the plans for the update.

Calling a tiny echochmber "literally everybody" is really funny because outside of a small curated club nobody likes, or wanted, these changes. Nobody ever, EVER, complained about not having to change tongs constantly like every other tool or being able to pick up food. Again, a lot of these changes are just more tedium for the sake of tedium. People who defend things with "but it's realistic" are the epitome of midwit, as realism is not and never will be inherently fun. The first thing a videogame has to do is be fun. People like Gabe Newell already explained why realism is often the opposite of fun.
You have to balance realism with how fun or tedious something is, adn you have to walk a pretty fine line to do it and 1.22 fails miserably by jumping straight into the "I have to go grocery shopping" chore pit.

But as I already pointed out all these tedium changes and other problems are unlikely to be fixed because as far as I can tell the dev team only listen to positive feedback and nothing else. I am constantly amazed by the ability of modders, who do it for free, to make the game more complex and less tedious while fixing core issues for free while a team we all pay money to in order to develop the game can't do some basic features and fixes after years of them existing.

Edited February 11 by Urmanin

[Bumber]

14 minutes ago, MKMoose said:

Tongs having durability is something "literally everybody" wanted, because handling white-hot metal with wood in the first place is only a bright idea as long as the tongs keep burning.

Maybe they wanted consequences for wood on white-hot metal, but I don't recall anyone asking for drawbacks to using wood on hot bowls, or iron on hot metal. They just wanted metal to be used where wood would burn.

Wearing any type of gloves should suffice for hot bowls.

Edited February 11 by Bumber

[Urmanin]

Here's another question on forging realism since tongs need to be more realistic all of a sudden: where do all the metal voxels I hammer off go? Metal doesn't just magically disappear. Does it teleport straight to the rust dimension?

[Urmanin]

11 minutes ago, Bumber said:

Maybe they wanted consequences for wood on white-hot metal, but I don't recall anyone asking for drawbacks to using wood on hot bowls, or iron on hot metal. They just wanted metal to be used where wood would burn.

Wearing any type of gloves should suffice for hot bowls.

See, the changes would be fine if you needed one pair of tongs (infinite, wooden) to work with crucibles and another tier of tongs (infinite, metal) to work with higher temperatures, and not just "let's make players forge tongs forever now". Hell, realistically you now shouldn't be able to work with metal ever with wooden tongs now since the smelting temperature of copper is over 1000c and tongs are routinely used, right now, for lower temperature work with ingots. And needing them for food cooking is just completely unneeded and unnecessary.

[Bumber]

10 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

See, the changes would be fine if you needed one pair of tongs (infinite, wooden) to work with crucibles

The outside of the crucible is going to be nearly as hot as the metal inside. There should definitely be some durability loss on wood.

Not sure how hot pottery should be by the time you take it out. IIRC, it would likely shatter if touched before it cools, so the risk to wood is a moot point.

Edited February 11 by Bumber

[MKMoose]

10 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

Calling a tiny echochmber "literally everybody" is really funny

The only reason I said "literally everybody" specifically in quotes, is to slightly less directly point out the absurdity of you saying "literally nobody" or an equivalent phrase four times in your litany of complaints equally directionless as you're claiming the devs are. I'd be more willing to take your "feedback" here seriously if it wasn't filled with ad hominem arguments, multiple inaccuracies and hyperboles that muddy all of your points, and senseless complaining about in-progress features that are confirmed or at least very likely to change before the update hits stable.

[Urmanin]

1 minute ago, Bumber said:

The outside of the crucible is going to be nearly as hot as the metal inside. There should definitely be some durability loss on wood.

Not sure how hot pottery should be by the time you take it out. IIRC, it would likely shatter if touched at high temp, so the risk to wood is a moot point.

There should be no durability loss on tongs. It's just tedium.
You want metal tongs, possibly with leather wrapped around the handle part to work with iron+? That's cool, that's fine, I don't want to constantly have to re-craft tongs. And I certainly don't want to need to have tongs everywhere to work with anything hotter than a mild midsummer day in a fantasy game where i am a blue-skinned better-than-human immortal.

[Bumber]

1 minute ago, Urmanin said:

There should be no durability loss on tongs. It's just tedium.

Wood isn't suitable for holding crucibles, yet you can't craft metal tongs without doing so. The easy solution is to stop using wooden tongs after you've made the metal ones.

[Urmanin]

2 minutes ago, MKMoose said:

The only reason I said "literally everybody" specifically in quotes, is to slightly less directly point out the absurdity of you saying "literally nobody" or an equivalent phrase four times in your litany of complaints equally directionless as you're claiming the devs are. I'd be more willing to take your "feedback" here seriously if it wasn't filled with ad hominem arguments, multiple inaccuracies and hyperboles that muddy all of your points, and senseless complaining about in-progress features that are confirmed or at least very likely to change before the update hits stable.

I don't trust Tyron to roll back bad changes since he's the one who made the devastation tower (and the journey to it), the literal worst, anti-fun part of any game I have seen in over 25 years. I'd rather go back to getting PKd in ultima online than do that one again, ever.
My point of most "realism" changes this update just being tedium for tedium's sake stands. Sure, make me grow EVEN MORE flax, as if you didn't already need multiple crates' worth of flax to do things in this game, like being able to make a sailboat and a windmill. 

[Urmanin]

1 minute ago, Bumber said:

Wood isn't suitable for holding crucibles, yet you can't craft metal tongs without doing so. The easy solution is to stop using wooden tongs after you've made the metal ones.

That's what I said. You can require metal tongs for iron, meteoric iron and steel metalwork, but there is no reason I should retire perfectly workable tongs for when I need to work with copper, gold or lead.

[Urmanin]

Just now, RogueVali said:

U didn't know hunting is fine cause there's mods that fix it? We totes needed those spear nerfs, and no buffs to anything else.

Nerfing ranged options in a stone age to late medieval survival game is an insult to every hunter or soldier that ever lived until firearms became widespread.

[CastIronFabric]

14 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Humor me in a humorous digression.

An old coworker of mine went hunting with a friend of his who was on the USA Olypmic marksmen team.  On the day of the storied event they were hunting caribeasts at dusk and one was grazing all nice and profile on a ridge some fair distance away.  Said marksman shot said caribeast which looked up momentarily in surprise before resuming it's grazing.  A third member of the hunting party proclaimed the marksman had missed and the marksman objected, "There is no freaking way I missed the side of that barn!!!" then proceeded to plug it again to prove his skill.  Again the caribeast looked up in surprise and decided to walk away.  As it turned away from said hunting party, the silouhette against the clear sky could be seen two streams of blood squirting out from it's sides.  After a handful of squirts the beast fell over dead due to blood loss.

I assume you understand I think hunts bleeding out and perhaps even leaving a trail is a good thing.

I am just pointing out that a deer do not have a den or a nest or anything similar. So for example when you notice you are nearly completely out of gas you do not run to 'your gas station' (yes I know that does not explicitly mean ownership) you run instead to THE nearest gas station.

 

[Maelstrom]

14 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

@Maelstrom I'd believe it, given some hunting stories that I've heard. To be fair, hunting stories are similar to fishing stories, but there's often a nugget of truth in the mix somewhere.

I've also heard that pronghorn antelope can run for quite a while despite being mortally wounded. 

Did I claim anywhere that the story was true?   

[williams_482]

It's pretty wild that someone who has seen all of one major version of this game (1.21 stable) and a the very beginning of one dev cycle (1.22 prerelease 1) feels comfortable concluding that the current stable is the best the game will ever be because the development team who created it are obviously incompetent egomaniacs uninterested in real feedback. 

This message board is full of positive and negative comments about the changes in this update, with many of the most prolific posters sharing some of each. The hyperbolic rants and slippery slope doomerism has somehow been contained to just two users in this one thread. 

If you want people to listen to your complaints, maybe stop treating your audience like a bunch of twelve year olds surfing for rage bait on Youtube and start demonstrating a capacity for civil discussion. 

[LadyWYT]

2 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Did I claim anywhere that the story was true?   

Nope, but like I said, it's crazy enough to be true. 

 

56 minutes ago, williams_482 said:

It's pretty wild that someone who has seen all of one major version of this game (1.21 stable) and a the very beginning of one dev cycle (1.22 prerelease 1) feels comfortable concluding that the current stable is the best the game will ever be because the development team who created it are obviously incompetent egomaniacs uninterested in real feedback. 

This message board is full of positive and negative comments about the changes in this update, with many of the most prolific posters sharing some of each. The hyperbolic rants and slippery slope doomerism has somehow been contained to just two users in this one thread. 

If you want people to listen to your complaints, maybe stop treating your audience like a bunch of twelve year olds surfing for rage bait on Youtube and start demonstrating a capacity for civil discussion. 

Just quoting here because it's convenient, and a sensible post to quote. But I do want to point out that Tyron and Saraty are the original creators, and building the game they want to play themselves. That doesn't mean they won't add options where they deem appropriate for others who might not want to play the same way, but the options they add are going to be what they feel is appropriate to maintain their creative vision. That's also why the game is as solid as it is; they're building their dream game, and not just throwing together a bunch of popular tropes and shiny visuals as a quick cash grab. The moment that passion is lost though is the moment the game starts to decline.

Edited February 11 by LadyWYT
forgot words

[Urmanin]

43 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Nope, but like I said, it's crazy enough to be true. 

 

Just quoting here because it's convenient, and a sensible post to quote. But I do want to point out that Tyron and Saraty are the original creators, and building the game they want to play themselves. That doesn't mean they won't add options where they deem appropriate for others who might not want to play the same way, but the options they add are going to be what they feel is appropriate to maintain their creative vision. That's also why the game is as solid as it is; they're building their dream game, and not just throwing together a bunch of popular tropes and shiny visuals as a quick cash grab. The moment that passion is lost though is the moment the game starts to decline.

Quite frankly the game isn't as solid as you claim because the whole chapter 2 of the story is some of the absolute worst I have seen videogames have to offer. Not to mention many other gripes, no matter how minor, people had over previous updates some of which still haven't been addressed even though it would really not take long. Such as the stone paths being misalingned with their version of stairs. This has been a complaint for coming up to 2 years at the very least. Do not tell me this takes years of dev time to fix. It doesn't.
And looking back at updates and excuses, some design decisions in regards to it read as stubborn and entirely tone-deaf. Why are the chapter 2 locations so far? To justify the elk. Their words not mine. People defend it as an "adventure" but holding W for hours on empty plains with nothing in them but an odd wolf or bear (or the notorious pit traps that are everywhere) isn't very fun.
Why did the spears get nerfed? Because carrying 10 and throwing them is "too powerful". We'd certainly want to address all the npcs complaining about that one. In a pve game.
Why is the mechanical update now the fishing update? Because it's easier to put into the second game (which TOTALLY isn't affecting vs development trust me bro). God reading that whole post about it, it's so pathetic. It's just Tyron crying about it because he knows it's true.

[CastIronFabric]

19 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

Quite frankly the game isn't as solid as you claim because the whole chapter 2 of the story is some of the absolute worst I have seen videogames have to offer. Not to mention many other gripes, no matter how minor, people had over previous updates some of which still haven't been addressed even though it would really not take long. Such as the stone paths being misalingned with their version of stairs. This has been a complaint for coming up to 2 years at the very least. Do not tell me this takes years of dev time to fix. It doesn't.
And looking back at updates and excuses, some design decisions in regards to it read as stubborn and entirely tone-deaf. Why are the chapter 2 locations so far? To justify the elk. Their words not mine. People defend it as an "adventure" but holding W for hours on empty plains with nothing in them but an odd wolf or bear (or the notorious pit traps that are everywhere) isn't very fun.
Why did the spears get nerfed? Because carrying 10 and throwing them is "too powerful". We'd certainly want to address all the npcs complaining about that one. In a pve game.
Why is the mechanical update now the fishing update? Because it's easier to put into the second game (which TOTALLY isn't affecting vs development trust me bro). God reading that whole post about it, it's so pathetic. It's just Tyron crying about it because he knows it's true.

Once you start playing this update you will find the spears is not actually as big of a change to game play as you think it is, smithing is.

I predict a lot of belly aching such as 'I cant finish my copper smithing before it goes cold and I cant put it back in the forge because I already have a ingot there'

yup...love it personally.

Regarding the story, I believe (for reasons I really do not want to get into) that moving forward that there will be a lot more updates like this latest one and a lot less updates that are story focused.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

16 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

Quite frankly the game isn't as solid as you claim because the whole chapter 2 of the story is some of the absolute worst I have seen videogames have to offer. Not to mention many other gripes, no matter how minor, people had over previous updates some of which still haven't been addressed even though it would really not take long. Such as the stone paths being misalingned with their version of stairs. This has been a complaint for coming up to 2 years at the very least. Do not tell me this takes years of dev time to fix. It doesn't.
And looking back at updates and excuses, some design decisions in regards to it read as stubborn and entirely tone-deaf. Why are the chapter 2 locations so far? To justify the elk. Their words not mine. People defend it as an "adventure" but holding W for hours on empty plains with nothing in them but an odd wolf or bear (or the notorious pit traps that are everywhere) isn't very fun.

"to justify the elk. Their words not mine."

You, uh... got a quote there buddy? A linky link? Something other than "their words not mine"

17 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

Why did the spears get nerfed? Because carrying 10 and throwing them is "too powerful". We'd certainly want to address all the npcs complaining about that one. In a pve game.
Why is the mechanical update now the fishing update? Because it's easier to put into the second game (which TOTALLY isn't affecting vs development trust me bro). God reading that whole post about it, it's so pathetic. It's just Tyron crying about it because he knows it's true.

Spears got nerfed because previously the best spear you could make was bronze-tier without mods. It made sense that the bronze tier would be more powerful than it's other projectile counterparts as an alternative to bow/arrow if chickens and therefore feathers weren't readily available. Bearing in mind, you cannot stack spears, but you CAN stack arrows, carrying 10 spears as you suggest means 10 inventory slots that cannot be taken up by other things. By my last count, the most the player can carry at any time is 43 stacks of anything if you count the off-hand slot and any items you can old there as a "stack". I am referring to anything that takes up an inventory slots as a stack even if you can only carry one of said item in  a slot at a time. If you are carrying 10 spears, then that lowers you to 33 slots that you can use for actual inventory, even less if you use specialized bags, such as the mining bag which take up a backpack slot. All this boils down to is that spears, due to their limited capacity to be carried had to be more powerful to be a viable weapon choice. Prior to this update, the best spear you could carry was again, bronze which allowed for later weapon tiers (iron and steel) to eclipse it in damage with the Falx and/or blackguard blade for melee, and the bow and arrow for ranged.

The addition of iron and steel spears, of course, means that they will once again be more powerful than their same-tier counterparts. The developers probably couldn't see a need for the falx/bg blade and arrows at iron tier or the falx and arrows at steel tier so they just nerfed the spears to deal less damage overall to keep the other weapon types competitive and still viable for any situation. The spear is a weird weapon because it doubles as both a melee and ranged weapon that you can't stack in your inventory. I think these changes are pretty well balanced.

you are of course free to disagree, but I would caution you in the future to provide links and sources to things you claim as fact that cannot easily be looked up on the wiki.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

5 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

I predict a lot of belly aching such as 'I cant finish my copper smithing before it goes cold and I cant put it back in the forge because I already have a ingot there'

just make two forges #fivehead

[Teh Pizza Lady]

3 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Did I claim anywhere that the story was true?   

GASP you mean.... people would just lie on the internet???

[CastIronFabric]

3 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

just make two forges #fivehead

exactly!

If people are raging over the small chance that they might have to hit a boar 4 times instead of 3 (although my play experience has been 3 just like before) imagine how they are going to rage over having to have two forges and TWO brown coal/charcoal! oh my god.