Combat system proposal for the game

[THRL808]

https://www.vintagestory.at/forums/topic/1401-the-return-of-the-combat-suggestion/

Maybe I didn’t describe the combat system as clearly as @Erik but I tried.

 

I've been playing games like Ding light 2 , for honor , MORDHAU , CHIVALRY 2 , dark souls 2/3 in the last months and I've watched a video demo of the combat system in hytale , and in the last few days I've watched the combat in minecraft and vintage story , and they are terrible, yes someone can tell me that I am comparing different genres of games, but I will answer that all these games have a combat system, and of course I would like to have a good combat system in the vintage story

Combo hits
Various punches, heavy, fast, medium punches and so on
Blocking
An area strike like in MORDHAU and CHIVALRO 2 DINGLIGHT 2 when you can kill two opponents at once with a sword or other weapon with a swing of the weapon

I hope the developers will make a very good combat system in the future, if the developers want to expand their game then do not forget that a lot of PVP players will come, although a good combat system is also suitable for PVE players, battle with bosses and ordinary enemies

And by the way, rolling like a ball is complete nonsense, in my opinion. rolling is complete nonsense, it's better to do as in Dying light / for honor, the character just moves to the left or right, so that the enemy has a chance to hit you, and you won't look ridiculous once you roll like a ball.

Look at the combat system in For Honor, it is quite dynamic and requires the player to react and read his enemy

[Ancient King]

Some Weapon variety would be nice if or when they get to it in a combat update, anything from a mace, pike, glaive, great sword, tower shield, and vice versa.

[Domkrats]

3 hours ago, Ancient King said:

Some Weapon variety would be nice if or when they get to it in a combat update, anything from a mace, pike, glaive, great sword, tower shield, and vice versa.

In Discord's devlog there is already some hint that new weapon could be added after some time.

Quote

Current longblade will be replaced with a new weapon, inspired by Dacian Falx.

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by Domkrats

[B3LY]

Support, although Tyron told me yesterday that they decide what to do with the combat system in the future, so, it's interesting to see what happens, but maybe someone will want to make a massive mod for this in the future when the official battle system update comes out, in any case, your topics are interesting. 

[yunus54]

I think Mount & Blade mechanics would fit well with the vintage story.

[Dizuki]

I personally kind of like the simplistic style, it makes it accessible. However I do think vintage story could use some. . . spice, something to make it different from Minecraft. The game has a pretty in depth damage calculation, that isn't really felt by players. I think more enemy types and armored enemies to make use of what's already there. I think some weapons with special bonuses could be cool, like maces do bonus damage vs mechanical. I would really like it to be like you need to plan out an attack on nests and enemy strongholds. 

[Khornet]

IDK I wouldn't do anything too elaborate for Vintage Story's combat; what I would do, however, is giving alternative attacks for melee weapons - so you slash with the left click, but pierce (thrust) with the right-click - the thrust attack would have more range, but less damage, for example. I'd also consider letting us hold down the button for charged attacks.
Also, hitboxes for the head/torso and legs. It already works for the player character (though on a simplistic percentage-based system) - so why not incorporate those arrow headshots for drifters?

[staryoshi06]

On 2/27/2022 at 11:26 PM, Jacob Kos said:

IDK I wouldn't do anything too elaborate for Vintage Story's combat; what I would do, however, is giving alternative attacks for melee weapons - so you slash with the left click, but pierce (thrust) with the right-click - the thrust attack would have more range, but less damage, for example. I'd also consider letting us hold down the button for charged attacks.
Also, hitboxes for the head/torso and legs. It already works for the player character (though on a simplistic percentage-based system) - so why not incorporate those arrow headshots for drifters?

I was actually thinking about something like this a while ago. I would think the thrust should do more damage (piercing damage, like throwing the spear), but would 'stick' you to the enemy until you pull it back out.

[Davis]

On 2/20/2022 at 1:52 PM, yunus54 said:

I think Mount & Blade mechanics would fit well with the vintage story.

I posted about this a while ago. I'm glad to see more of us leaning towards a more directional (or as I like to say, skill based) combat system. A lot of the PVE players are against this because I think they feel this will turn vintage story into a PVP orientated game, but in my mind this adds a level of depth to the volvox genre that hasn't been tried. I have to imagine this would be a massive undertaking in terms of the programming required, but I would be very very happy if one day this was the goal / achievable. Even if that's years down the line. 

Edited March 24, 2022 by Davis

[Hal13]

On 2/20/2022 at 7:52 PM, yunus54 said:

I think Mount & Blade mechanics would fit well with the vintage story.

Please not, those mechanics are way too broken, KCD did a better job but even those mechanics are only good in a duel like situation (or it becomes a shooter, quite literally as killing via ranged attacks is way faster than any melee fight). Going into melee in both games is quite stupid, sure you might need a backup for when your and the enemies ammunition is used up, but in MB you can easily defeat whole armies on your own (would have to look up my exact record but it was in the lower three digits killed in a single battle, about 1/4 - 1/3 of the enemies casualties most of those before my army and the enemies army clashed together) and in KCD defeating a dozen soldiers/bandits is just as easy, just stay on open field and on your horse and shoot them with arrows, in melee on foot it's tedious to even only defeat a few opponents in MB and in KCD melee on foot against more than 1 enemy at once is basically suicide.

I don't see what is enjoyable to this as you'd make ranged combat even more superior than it already is in VS. Sure it'll be a more realistic take on combat, but is that really needed? Apart from the rock throws it still seems to be that hostile mobs do not need to actually hit, you only need to be in reach at the time they attack for them to hit you, why make it more complicated (than it is already) to hit them in return?

On 3/24/2022 at 7:33 PM, Davis said:

A lot of the PVE players are against this because I think they feel this will turn vintage story into a PVP orientated game

In past games and servers that exact thing happened, you open the game/server to pvp and with the PVP enthusiasts comes the most toxic bunch of players, those that kill others just because they could especially without consent to fight them, griefing builds (in Minecraft for example), etc. leading to those that do not enjoy pvp to leave the game/server behind and the game/server becoming a cesspool until it gets taken down. Sure, those players are not the majority, not even under those players who like pvp, but they sadly take over every time they land on any server.

I mean who apart from people enjoying combat and in the end wanting to challenge others who are skilled combatants do benefit from refined combat mechanics? Nobody, "interesting" combat mechanics only benefit people who like combat, people who do not enjoy that, will quite likely either have to learn to survive or stop playing. Sure, they still could play in creative mode, but that's not what most of them want (else they would do it already).

 

 

I don't say there are no improvements that can be made on combat in VS. Useful, more realistic blocking would be nice, mobs needing to actually hit to do damage would be nice, more variety of weapons and enemies would be nice...

Edited March 26, 2022 by Hal13

[l33tmaan]

1 hour ago, Hal13 said:

I mean who apart from people enjoying combat and in the end wanting to challenge others who are skilled combatants do benefit from refined combat mechanics? Nobody, "interesting" combat mechanics only benefit people who like combat, people who do not enjoy that, will quite likely either have to learn to survive or stop playing. Sure, they still could play in creative mode, but that's not what most of them want (else they would do it already).

Boy, I cannot wait for combat to get overhauled so I can tell people to git gud at it. The wolf bait icon is not enough!!!

[Hal13]

4 minutes ago, l33tmaan said:

Boy, I cannot wait for combat to get overhauled so I can tell people to git gud at it. The wolf bait icon is not enough!!!

Tbh I'm not sure if you are joking or not...

There are many things that aren't outright make combat mechanics more challenging, that would result in more challenging combat.

Like I said there are combat things that really could use an overhaul, especially an overhaul of the AI could do wonders: animals that have no way of reaching you shouldn't stay close as long as you can obviously still harm them, idk if path finding can't find a way to get you but the animal takes damage trying to get to you it should retreat after some time or a damage treshold, similar to drifters now throwing rocks if they can't get to you but still see you. such changes are way easier implemented and provide a gameplay benefit for most of the players. Occassionally a curious wolf could follow you in a safe distance and when finding your big farm with dozens of animals as livestock may alert more, or could be tamed.

Active blocking I definitely think would be good, but directional strikes and blocks are way too much. Maybe secondary attacks would be blocking, I mean sure, it is possible to throw a spear while wearing a shield, less precise and far but possible, but is it needed? From what I see there is no drawback from always carrying a shield in the offhand, apart from not carrying a lantern or torch and while building high up people are likely to crouch most of the time anyway resulting in them constantly blocking as it is now (right? still playing in 1.15 my information on this are the changelogs). apart from the spear no weapon does use the right mouse button so making blocking a more active thing might make combat more challenging without actually making the mechanics too complicated. and crouching + blocking still could have a benefit as potentially more of the body is behind cover.

Actual hit locations instead of randomizing them is another thing, especially if mobs would have to actually hit too. if an enemy is below you, it makes sense that they target your legs, attacks from the back might do more damage, ... the player already has hit locations, hence i think the devs will implement something like that at some point.

The monster we have are a bit bland, maybe some monster that kept its distance and tries to hit you with ranged attacks? Or a monster that camouflages as blocks around it and only moves if it is attacked or its target cannot see it?

[Davis]

On 3/26/2022 at 10:57 AM, Hal13 said:

In past games and servers that exact thing happened, you open the game/server to pvp and with the PVP enthusiasts comes the most toxic bunch of players, those that kill others just because they could especially without consent to fight them, griefing builds (in Minecraft for example), etc. leading to those that do not enjoy pvp to leave the game/server behind and the game/server becoming a cesspool until it gets taken down. Sure, those players are not the majority, not even under those players who like pvp, but they sadly take over every time they land on any server.

I mean who apart from people enjoying combat and in the end wanting to challenge others who are skilled combatants do benefit from refined combat mechanics? Nobody, "interesting" combat mechanics only benefit people who like combat, people who do not enjoy that, will quite likely either have to learn to survive or stop playing. Sure, they still could play in creative mode, but that's not what most of them want (else they would do it already).

I mean, I get your point. However, I think it's a very biased opinion you're taking. You're basically suggesting by implementing further PVP development the game becomes not fun for people who don't like to PVP, but that's sort of a given. I hate puzzles games and therefore I don't play puzzle games. You've also proven exactly my point in your second paragraph. Just because you do not succeed at a certain type of PVP and do not want to learn, doesn't mean everyone else should suffer. Just my two cents. 

[junawood]

10 hours ago, Davis said:

You're basically suggesting by implementing further PVP development the game becomes not fun for people who don't like to PVP, but that's sort of a given. I hate puzzles games and therefore I don't play puzzle games. You've also proven exactly my point in your second paragraph. Just because you do not succeed at a certain type of PVP and do not want to learn, doesn't mean everyone else should suffer.

Are puzzles in games known for inviting a community of puzzle loving toxic idiots who then go on servers and ruin the fun for everyone else? I don't think so.

It's not about being able to fight against assholes, it's about having less assholes in the community so you can enjoy less toxic communities on servers. It's about having to deal less with toxic idiots on servers, on streams, on the forum, on discord, ...

It's about a group of people who don't just enjoy their part of the game, but who enjoy ruining the game for others and then feel oh so...whatever the eff they feel when they do that.

So, your last sentence would be "Just because you like a combat system that would lead to more toxic PVP players getting interested in this game, doesn't mean everyone else should suffer."

[Davis]

4 hours ago, junawood said:

Are puzzles in games known for inviting a community of puzzle loving toxic idiots who then go on servers and ruin the fun for everyone else? I don't think so.

It's not about being able to fight against assholes, it's about having less assholes in the community so you can enjoy less toxic communities on servers. It's about having to deal less with toxic idiots on servers, on streams, on the forum, on discord, ...

It's about a group of people who don't just enjoy their part of the game, but who enjoy ruining the game for others and then feel oh so...whatever the eff they feel when they do that.

So, your last sentence would be "Just because you like a combat system that would lead to more toxic PVP players getting interested in this game, doesn't mean everyone else should suffer."

I'm going to point out you sound like the toxic person replying with such aggressiveness. If you don't like PVP, play a PVE server, or find a good community of players to play with. Not to mention your comparison here is a game like Bannerlord, the games sole purpose is to be a PVP game, with some basic management mechanics. Of course the idea is to kill other people, that's literally the entire goal of online play in that game. Adding an improved PVP system to this game does not overshadow all of the other features, it compliments them. The fact your first assumption is that "assholes" are going to take over your game and ruin it for you is baffling to me. 

Edited April 5, 2022 by Davis

[junawood]

17 minutes ago, Davis said:

I'm going to point out you sound like the toxic person replying with such aggressiveness.

? There was no aggressiveness in my post. I was relaxed and just explained something.

 

22 minutes ago, Davis said:

The fact your first assumption is that "assholes" are going to take over your game and ruin it for you is baffling to me. 

That is your assumption/interpretation, but not what I wrote.

[l33tmaan]

That seems a lot like what you wrote, lol. In fact, I would go so far as to call your other post "butthurt". Davis is right.

Edited April 5, 2022 by l33tmaan

[junawood]

@l33tmaan Awesome.

"This is the problem with a toxic community: [...]"

"You are aggressive and toxic and [false assumption]!!"

"? Err, nope."

"SEE?!?!"

Well... I'm outta here.

[l33tmaan]

I don't see how you can conflate people who want minor amounts of depth added to the combat system with "a toxic community". Then again, I never played Minecraft PVP servers, so maybe I don't know how bad it can really get.

[Thorfinn]

I'm quite good at combat games, particularly FPS and RTS. I just play VS to get something different than I can get in pretty much any other game. That and it's not M$ Minecrap. Morph VS into the same as any other game, and I'll likely switch to playing something else.

That's all.

[l33tmaan]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn said:

I'm quite good at combat games, particularly FPS and RTS. I just play VS to get something different than I can get in pretty much any other game. That and it's not M$ Minecrap. Morph VS into the same as any other game, and I'll likely switch to playing something else.

That's all.

I don't even see how that's possible with the game's current trajectory, honestly. Letting people attack from different directions isn't gonna turn this into Morrowind with cubes.

Edited April 5, 2022 by l33tmaan

[Thorfinn]

I don't know. I don't follow the dev logs. I have no idea what the future of the fort is. Just that if it becomes Mount and Blade with a survival module bolted to it, when I want battle, I'll just fire up one of the several M&B I own, and look around for a game I can mellow out to like VS. Not that it isn't fun, it just isn't much of a challenge after the first couple days. Which is why I only occasionally play all the way through the winter. I'm often running bloomeries in the first month...