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Chickens need rebalance


Varenvel

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Chickens need rebalance as they really do feel....inferior very time consuming and not very much good food source

Chickens only being eating grain i think is biggest factor who is just...odd , chickens are omnivores , they can eat almost anything from most fruits , veggies (with exception to citrus) to meat , hay , while i never had chickens myself our family is mostly farmers , and it kinda bothers me that in game like this who wants to be realistic chickens are annoying to feed (as grain is quite valuable as food for pies , porridges and bread) and also making chickens worst food source (little meat , eggs dont provide that much)

Pigs and sheep ingame will literally eat mush leftover from pressing juice/wine and grass , something chickens do and would also eat irl.

i propose that chickens should have expanded diet to fruit , and veggies.

Edited by Varenvel
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31 minutes ago, Varenvel said:

realistic chickens are annoying to feed (as grain is quite valuable as food for pies , porridges and bread)

I think this suggestion raises an interesting point, but I just thought I'd offer a little advice here on the subject of chickens being annoying to feed.
I personally never have my chickens going hungry, since I have a large flax farm. I farm flax purely for the fibres, and the grain is just a byproduct.
Flax grain is pretty awful for cooking, so I always just feed it to my animals.
By doing this, you can keep your chickens fed while still getting something useful from crops! :)

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, ifoz said:

I think this suggestion raises an interesting point, but I just thought I'd offer a little advice here on the subject of chickens being annoying to feed.
I personally never have my chickens going hungry, since I have a large flax farm. I farm flax purely for the fibres, and the grain is just a byproduct.
Flax grain is pretty awful for cooking, so I always just feed it to my animals.
By doing this, you can keep your chickens fed while still getting something useful from crops! :)


i wouldent call it awful , it can still make same pies of fruit and meat , nutrition from grain/loss in whole nutrition of entire meal is like 160 calories , it might seam a lot till you see how much meat/fruit/veggies add , its 10-15% at most

my point more is why weaste grain(even of flax) who stores pretty much indefinitly (4-5 years) for food who is not that much more nutricious and time consuming

especialy sheep and pigs just eat hay/weaste or berries(who are so abundant during summer)

Edited by Varenvel
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29 minutes ago, Varenvel said:

i wouldent call it awful , it can still make same pies of fruit and meat , nutrition from grain/loss in whole nutrition of entire meal is like 160 calories , it might seam a lot till you see how much meat/fruit/veggies add , its 10-15% at most

my point more is why weaste grain(even of flax) who stores pretty much indefinitly (4-5 years) for food who is not that much more nutricious and time consuming

especialy sheep and pigs just eat hay/weaste or berries(who are so abundant during summer)

True, true.
Chickens aren't really the optimal animal, and I do like your ideas for rebalancing them.
Still, they're fun to keep. Getting to check the henboxes each morning is cool, so I'm a fan.

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I don't know that chickens really need a rebalance, but it would be nice to have the option to feed them fruit and vegetables, especially since I have more fruit mash than I really know what to do with. Feeding them grain isn't really an issue though, as flax grain isn't as nutritious for the player to eat and it's easy to grow a lot of grain per farming tile.

I think the main strength of chickens over other livestock is that they're a lot easier to catch and aren't nearly as dangerous, and they produce a good, steady source of protein via eggs. Even if you're just raising them to butcher, they mature a lot faster than other livestock and are currently the only creature to drop feathers, which you will need to make arrows. And unlike other livestock, you don't actually need the rooster for chickens to be a good food source--hens will produce eggs on their own if fed, although the eggs will not be able to hatch.

Now that being said, you're going to get more meat per animal with sheep or pigs, although they're a bit more difficult to obtain and take longer to raise. If anything, I'd raise the total number of eggs a hen can hatch at once to five rather than three, in order to make chickens a more attractive meat source. Even with a buff though, there's always going to be a method that's the most optimal mathematically, and players who are min-maxing are almost always going to pick that option rather than the ones that might be more fun/aesthetically pleasing.

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I've switched over to mostly flax grain for flour. Why? Because food at that point is mostly pie. Meat pie, veggie pie and fruit pie, and all share the grain component. Keeping all bars filled is much easier when you don't have grain being so much of your satiety. Flax pies without the top crust still supply more grain than I'd like, but other than switching over to some fraction of meat stews and full veggie stews, I don't know how else to reduce the grain fraction of your diet.

That said, yeah, it's pretty easy to overdo it and end up with a half dozen storage vessels of flax grain before you come to your senses and start throwing it away. 

[EDIT]

Far and away the biggest disadvantage of chickens is they produce on their schedule, not yours. It's easy to get meat put up within an hour or two of slaughter, which happens when you decide it happens, but chickens you have to be there every day.

[/EDIT]

Edited by Thorfinn
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The poultry output is definitely pretty bad, but my biggest problem with chickens is how many hoops you have to jump through to get them going. They get scared way too easy, and it's annoying having to build a coop way out of the way just because you don't want to risk walking too close and startling the scared little birdbrains while you're trying to get their generations improved to eliminate that.

Eggs... Vanilla could definitely find more uses for them, but I haven't played without Expanded Foods for many, many versions, and the eggs are amazing with that mod. Making eggs more versatile in vanilla would instantly improve the value of chickens.

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On 6/10/2024 at 9:42 AM, Thorfinn said:

That said, yeah, it's pretty easy to overdo it and end up with a half dozen storage vessels of flax grain before you come to your senses and start throwing it away. 

You don't make terra preta.  It takes obscene amounts of compost to convert high fert soil into terra preta, for which flax dough is a wonderful vehicle.

Sometime mix up your play and go for a long term goal, make a self-sustaining homestead that will last through multiple winters.

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1 hour ago, Maelstrom said:

It takes obscene amounts of compost to convert high fert soil into terra preta, for which flax dough is a wonderful vehicle.

That is a fantastic idea, one which I'd never considered! I'm going to start making flax dough expressly for turning into compost.

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1 dough = 1 rot and spoils rather quickly.  It's the most reliable way of creating compost in mass quantities that I have found.  And I have been experimenting since 1.15 with various methods.  Berries and meat rot faster, but produce lower quantities, variable amounts of rot and take longer to harvest.  Vegetables produce larger quantities, take longer to spoil and also are more variable.  Grain harvests produce an obscene amount of grain compared to other compostables.

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On 6/9/2024 at 5:42 AM, Varenvel said:

Chickens need rebalance as they really do feel....inferior very time consuming and not very much good food source

I was thinking last night that a lot of the game needs a rebalance.

Realistically, one chicken should be able to feel an active person for a day. But what you get doesn't feel like it can. Also realistically, only need a few hens laying eggs to provide you indefinitely. How to feed them, it's traditionally grain if in a coop. Don't know if I ever saw my grandpa toss some spiders into the chicken coop, it was always grain. But doesn't have to be the good grain.

Okay, that was minor. What really got me to thinking was seeing a moose. A single moose should be able to feed a person for half a year. That's a LOT of meat on the hoof! A half steer used to provide all the meat for my family growing up. But in my current game I've gone through half a dozen hogs and a handful of rabbits, and summer is starting and I still don't feel food secure to last until winter, let alone over winter. A single hog managed to provide four cooked meals, with approx a meal and half per day. Those damned crops better start coming in soon.

Overall I think the meat drops in this game are skimpy. Maybe seraphs have an extraordinarly high metabolism or something. Or just not balanced right. I have no idea how Blackguards manage it in this game.

In short, taking down a ewe should be able to feed a player for much more than just a week. I get it that weeks are condensed here, but still feels lacking.

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1 hour ago, Maelstrom said:

Sometime mix up your play and go for a long term goal, make a self-sustaining homestead that will last through multiple winters.

Tried something like that this last playthrough. Not planning to use it, no, but just to have it ready for some other seraph who wants to move in when I move on. Picking every berry I found and put them in baskets in the sun to hasten spoilage. Had 4 barrels of compost going by the end of the month. By mid-summer, I had basically a farm of barrels going. Fall didn't last as long as I thought it would so not one of the terra preta plots produced anything.

If I did the math right, I was farming 704 tiles of medium fertility soil. That was enough to fill 25? storage vessels, after having filled a couple trunks with prepared food, pies and crocks.

It just seems kind of pointless. Grow way too much food so you can make terra preta so you can grow even more way too much food. 

But you are probably right. Could have doubled my tilled tiles, half of them terra preta, had I done the dough trick. 

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6 hours ago, Brandybuck said:

Realistically, one chicken should be able to feel an active person for a day.

In-game or IRL? Because IRL one chicken would only feed a person for a day if you killed it and ate it. And the drawback to that is you now have no chicken(or have one less chicken assuming you have multiple). Unless you have a LOT of chickens, they won't reproduce fast enough for you to kill one per day to get your protein. In regards to egg production--hens usually lay one egg per day, meaning you'd still need multiple chickens to get enough to keep yourself fed.

6 hours ago, Brandybuck said:

Okay, that was minor. What really got me to thinking was seeing a moose. A single moose should be able to feed a person for half a year. That's a LOT of meat on the hoof! A half steer used to provide all the meat for my family growing up. But in my current game I've gone through half a dozen hogs and a handful of rabbits, and summer is starting and I still don't feel food secure to last until winter, let alone over winter. A single hog managed to provide four cooked meals, with approx a meal and half per day. Those damned crops better start coming in soon.

Overall I think the meat drops in this game are skimpy. Maybe seraphs have an extraordinarly high metabolism or something. Or just not balanced right. I have no idea how Blackguards manage it in this game.

In short, taking down a ewe should be able to feed a player for much more than just a week. I get it that weeks are condensed here, but still feels lacking.

Blackguard here! 😁 I don't generally have an issue acquiring food--I generally hunt a LOT(it's also one of my favorite things to do in the game) and make note of where the largest concentrations of berries and mushrooms are. I'm also fairly quick about getting a farm going, so when the harvest comes in there's plenty. And some crops also grow a lot faster than others. I also tend to opt for a meaty stew or a pie of some sort when possible, as these meals tend to be much more filling for a longer duration than others. I'll also note that if you are a Blackguard in a multiplayer setting, you'll probably want to befriend a hunter or malefactor if you're overly worried about food.

True, a single healthy moose or other large animal should provide enough meat to sustain an individual for a while...if you're going purely by realism. The issue I see with increasing the animal yield in-game to better match real-life though is at that point the gameplay becomes majorly unbalanced because it's too easy to survive. All you'd have to do is kill one moose, or even a pig or sheep, and provided that you can use the meat before it goes bad you no longer have to worry about finding food for a week or two. If the meat does go bad, that's a lot more rot to compost, which speeds up the process of acquiring terra preta. There would also no longer be much need to hunt multiple animals, as you could now potentially get most of the fat and hide you'll need for a while from just one. And if you do end up needing more of either, that means more meat that will most likely just rot or otherwise go to waste.

In short, I see it removing an engaging gameplay loop for the player, especially in the early game. The general challenge of the early game is just...surviving, which generally boils down to avoiding things that will kill you and finding enough to eat. It's not as simple as just finding one initial food source and being set for the rest of the game.

In regards to classes, Blackguards and Tailors are going to end up having their biggest weaknesses(increased hunger and decreased animal loot, respectively) no longer matter. Hunters are going to be absolutely bonkers as they already get more yield per animal as part of their class traits. The only way I see it being very balanced is if you make large prey animals harder to find and kill in order to keep the player on their toes. However, while it might make hunting a bit more engaging, the drawback there is that players will likely get much more frustrated when trying to hunt, to say nothing about the hurdle it poses to finding animals to domesticate.

I think what we have now for animal yields is fine, although fish could do with a higher drop rate(it doesn't make a lot of sense for half the fish to yield no meat). Is it particularly realistic? Not really, but it's high enough to cover most player needs and keep them engaged in that particular gameplay loop, without trivializing other gameplay loops. Once you get a farm planted and some livestock penned for taming, keeping a stable food supply is rather simple and you can more easily devote time and attention to other tasks.

7 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Picking every berry I found and put them in baskets in the sun to hasten spoilage.

Out of curiosity, did you put the rot box in a greenhouse as well? That's where I generally end up putting mine, as it increases the temperature further and speeds up the decay process just a tad bit more. 😀 How much time it ends up saving though I have no idea, as I've not done the math.

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1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

That's where I generally end up putting mine, as it increases the temperature further and speeds up the decay process just a tad bit more.

Huh. No, I didn't know that's how it worked. I even already had the glass that time.

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10 hours ago, Brandybuck said:

A single moose should be able to feed a person for half a year.

 

3 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

although fish could do with a higher drop rate(it doesn't make a lot of sense for half the fish to yield no meat).

There is a mod that does both of these. I guess. Never tried it, because food is never an issue on wilderness settings, but y'all are not alone.

https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/mod/12080

 

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17 hours ago, Brandybuck said:

I was thinking last night that a lot of the game needs a rebalance.

Realistically, one chicken should be able to feel an active person for a day. But what you get doesn't feel like it can. Also realistically, only need a few hens laying eggs to provide you indefinitely. How to feed them, it's traditionally grain if in a coop. Don't know if I ever saw my grandpa toss some spiders into the chicken coop, it was always grain. But doesn't have to be the good grain.

Okay, that was minor. What really got me to thinking was seeing a moose. A single moose should be able to feed a person for half a year. That's a LOT of meat on the hoof! A half steer used to provide all the meat for my family growing up. But in my current game I've gone through half a dozen hogs and a handful of rabbits, and summer is starting and I still don't feel food secure to last until winter, let alone over winter. A single hog managed to provide four cooked meals, with approx a meal and half per day. Those damned crops better start coming in soon.

Overall I think the meat drops in this game are skimpy. Maybe seraphs have an extraordinarly high metabolism or something. Or just not balanced right. I have no idea how Blackguards manage it in this game.

In short, taking down a ewe should be able to feed a player for much more than just a week. I get it that weeks are condensed here, but still feels lacking.


that is becouse you look from modern farming perspective , in today world grain is really cheap because its mass farmed in hundrets of tons and it was easiest food to mass produce

but in past time , ET when this game supposed to take place , grain was a bit more valuable commodity and not as staple meal as it is today

In ancient times there is reason pig and chicken became staple of food same as cows , all 3 animals graze , but chicken and pigs can eat food weaste , and staple of chicken diet was whatever they can peck(worms , beatles , and yes spiders , i seen chickens eats spiders and even fight over who gets to eat it) , food weaste , and grain if needed

chickens as omnivorous as pigs are

For similar reasons Chinese keep/kept ducks or carps around their rice farms , because they eat all worms/pest who could dine on their grains. but people today pretty much forgot why most animals were kept around and look at them thru more modern lens.

 

also another reason i want to add it is becouse game also lies to you , when you put berry mush in big thout game says that its suitable to chickens , but chickens cant or wont eat from big one , and you cant put it into "small one" as it accepts only grain


honestly food is not that big problem in a SP game and just would like more diversity of what i can feed chickens , but ill know that from prspective of having 6-8 player village server soon so that might be a bit harder

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14 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Out of curiosity, did you put the rot box in a greenhouse as well? That's where I generally end up putting mine, as it increases the temperature further and speeds up the decay process just a tad bit more. 😀 How much time it ends up saving though I have no idea, as I've not done the math.

I implemented the Compostor mod but nerfed it from 500x speed down to a more reasonable 5.  I may even further nerf it down to 2 or 3.

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1 hour ago, Maelstrom said:

I implemented the Compostor mod but nerfed it from 500x speed down to a more reasonable 5.  I may even further nerf it down to 2 or 3.

Somehow, I was unaware of that mod. I think I'm going to add that to my server as well, thanks for mentioning it!

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6 hours ago, Varenvel said:

but ill know that from prspective of having 6-8 player village server soon so that might be a bit harder

The issue is not the greater number of mouths to feed. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if one player could stockpile enough veggies and grain to feed 100 through the first winter, particularly if those 100 were doing anything useful, like foraging for seeds or cooking or making crocks.

It's the fact that the clock is running whenever any one player is on, even if he is just burning up all the summer months chiseling, instead of harvesting and planting the crops.as they mature. There's just no good way to deal with that except to limit the server to only running a few hours at a time, when all the players can be there.

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I'm not joking, I actually had a nightmare last night where I was attacked by a giant chicken, like that one massive mother hen in one of the old Tom & Jerry episodes (see pic below for reference). It was flapping its massive wings at me furiously, at one point surging towards my face with a very angry-looking beak, squawking like a maniac. I turned to flee but as with all dreams, I wasn't fast enough. As it dove into my face, that's when I woke up with cold sweat pouring down my forehead.

What I'm trying to say here is that if we enable chickens to be fed with all sorts of good stuff, they might end up being like the fowl in my dream. It'll turn VS into an even scarier game than it already is. Do we really want hyper aggressive giant chickens in the game? Should we allow our food to start an uprising against good, hardworking Seraphs?

fine-feathered-friend-c2a9-mgm.jpg

Edited by LJim
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OMG! You don't suppose that when seraphs figured out how to feed chickens fruit mash, they turn into drifters???!!? The chickens, I mean. Or, wait!!! The horror! 

"Yeah, doc, after I fed the chickens some new stuff the other day, I've been really sensitive to light, and hurt all over so I'm moaning all the time. Oh, and every time I see a rock I pick it up just in case... something,,, not sure what."

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