Really questionable changes in 1.22 pre1

[Urmanin]

1) Why would you add iron spears but nerf other spears to compensate? In which universe does this make sense? It just reads as "you make bronze spears out of iron now".

2) Glacier ice changes: I suspect this is done entirely to combat ice elevators. In an update where elevators are now no longer in. That's great, man.
3) Mechanical power changes: this is done just to spite the playerbase. Yeah, just ruin everyone's builds with no way to compensate, that's a great idea man.
So far 1.22 is looking like a straight downgrade to 1.21 due to these alone. Everything else added can already be done with mods.
Clearly this is an update aimed at adding mechanics that can be reused in the other game (which TOTALLY doesn't affect vs development, trust me guys), and not the promised mechanical power updates (outside of blowing up people's setups for no reason).
 

Edited February 5 by Urmanin

[LadyWYT]

Welcome to the forums!

26 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

1) Why would you add iron spears but nerf other spears to compensate?

Because with the current balance, bronze spears do around 8 points of damage when thrown, and spears are the best option for early game weapons in general due to the high damage. If the current scaling were kept, iron+ spears would be doing much more damage and be outclassing bows and even the falx. Thus to add in iron and steel spears and keep the other weapons viable, without changing creature health, it makes sense to rescale the damage of spears.

 

29 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

2) Glacier ice changes: I suspect this is done entirely to combat ice elevators.

Didn't know ice elevators were a thing, but I mean...ice only lingers where it's cold enough. If an ice block is placed in warm temperatures, it stands to reason that it would melt.

 

30 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

3) Mechanical power changes: this is done just to spite the playerbase. Yeah, just ruin everyone's builds with no way to compensate, that's a great idea man.

We're getting water power and other mechanical upgrades, which are an often requested and much anticipated feature. From what I understand, players tinkering with the update will also have the chance to test their current machinery setups to see whether or not the machines will break in 1.22. That is, if I read the post right, the machines will start smoking in the current 1.22-prelease, but won't fully break until the stable release of 1.22.

 

32 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

So far 1.22 is looking like a straight downgrade to 1.21 due to these alone. Everything else added can already be done with mods.

And the reason that many mods exist is that certain features don't yet exist in the base game. Some of that is changing in 1.22. Understandably, some mods will become obsolete, or otherwise need to modify their code in order to account for the changes.

It's fine if you don't like what's been presented for 1.22, and fair to criticize, but it's certainly not the end of the world.

[Urmanin]

Also another feature not seen in 1.22 is that the tower still exists. 
It is the most anti-fun part of almost any game I have seen in my life since the times of ultima and wizardry and my greatest wish is that it is deleted from the game completely because if it isn't I'm never finishing the story no matter how much more gets added to it in the future. 

In real life you can stockpile ice to slow down how fast it melts, and even cool basements with it. People centuries ago did it. We can't though it'll just melt. Not like it was useful for anything that isn't an elvator or building material in the base game anyway, and it still isn't. It just melts now, making it a borderline useless block.

Also, unlike bows you will usually only have 1-2 spears to throw and not a stack of arrows, and falxes just never made sense as a weapon to begin with. Of course a spear would do more damage than a falx. Not to mention most people don't use spears for throwing once they get access to bows.

Hell, if you want to keep things realistic, the sling would do as much if not more damage than a longbow, a properly used sling can punch straight through a metal helmet. It's one of the deadliest (but hardest to use) weapons in human history.

As for mechanical upgrades, you're bricking people's builds first but adding no beneficial changes to compensate as far as I can tell. People wanted high power setups and now they're just gone with no benefit. People were waiting for elevators but you just shelved that too until 2028 or whenever.

[Foe Hammer]

While I cannot speak to the balance side too well, I have no reason but to agree with what @LadyWYT has said. Plus we will not really know how much of a nerf it is until it has been tested.

As for ice elevators, I have never seen or heard of them, but i have always found it weird how I can have blocks of ice on a warm sunny day that never melt.

57 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

3) Mechanical power changes: this is done just to spite the playerbase. Yeah, just ruin everyone's builds with no way to compensate, that's a great idea man.
So far 1.22 is looking like a straight downgrade to 1.21 due to these alone. Everything else added can already be done with mods.
Clearly this is an update aimed at adding mechanics that can be reused in the other game (which TOTALLY doesn't affect vs development, trust me guys), and not the promised mechanical power updates (outside of blowing up people's setups for no reason).

I think this is not a fair conclusion to reach and is assuming a lot of bad faith on the part of the devs. I find it highly reasonable that if you have a wooden shaft, spinning in a wooden frame, at hundreds, or even thousands of RPM, that it is going to burst into flames. Especially since the item we use in game to first unlock fire, uses this exact thing to ignite our first fire pit/torch. Plus it was explicitly mentioned that they intend to add more durable versions of mechanical parts that can better handle the punishment. Ya it would be great to have them now, but we may still see them before the stable release, and if not, there will probably be a mod or two that come to fill that role till then.

On a more satirical note, no one needs a 8000 RPM quern lol.

[Thorfinn]

13 minutes ago, Foe Hammer said:

As for ice elevators, I have never seen or heard of them, but i have always found it weird how I can have blocks of ice on a warm sunny day that never melt.

I kinda like this. Before, it was way too easy to get greenhouses going, and in quantity. Now, well, you have to make glass. I think. Maybe there's a workaround, but at least it isn't, "Make one trip to the mountains and you are good for your entire playthrough."

 

25 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

Also, unlike bows you will usually only have 1-2 spears to throw

What? Who that uses spears goes anywhere without 4, 5 or more, plus a stack of spearheads all ready to put on sticks?

 

[Broccoli Clock]

34 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I kinda like this. Before, it was way too easy to get greenhouses going, and in quantity. Now, well, you have to make glass. I think. Maybe there's a workaround, but at least it isn't, "Make one trip to the mountains and you are good for your entire playthrough."

Yes!

It's always felt odd for a realistic game to allow ice blocks taken from the top of the mountain will remain frozen no matter the temperature of the area you place them. I understand why, but it's still odd. Especially so when you have ice blocks in the water freezing the thawing due to temperature.

If anything, I'd just like the ice blocks to break and to give you snow, rather than the block itself. 

1 hour ago, Urmanin said:

3) Mechanical power changes: this is done just to spite the playerbase. Yeah, just ruin everyone's builds with no way to compensate, that's a great idea man.

I'm all for debating possible changes, but maybe lay off the emotive language. I somehow doubt the developers do anything to "spite" the player base. 

Edited February 5 by Broccoli Clock

[Broccoli Clock]

Aside from the above, my take on the other possible changes..

Mechanical changes, this will probably need to be done as they are expanding the game in that area. 
Spear changes, as @LadyWYT says, if you add in a new top tier, you will need to refactor those below it, or refactor the damage of all the mobs in the game. 
* that said, I almost never use spears (except for mopping up locusts, good reach for those tinny bástards!), I'm a falx/bow player.
 

[Thorfinn]

If everything in the update list is as billed, I'm not sure I see anything that is not an improvement. I take it for granted that they didn't nerf low-level spears so much that they are useless in early game, and just compressed the existing metal spears, but have not yet downloaded it. This evening, probably.

[LadyWYT]

5 minutes ago, Broccoli Clock said:

* that said, I almost never use spears (except for mopping up locusts, good reach for those tinny bástards!), I'm a falx/bow player.

This is typically me as well, but I might actually start using spears a bit more now outside of the early game. Lower damage than a falx, but more reach. A good poking stick will likely come in very handy for the caves and base defense. Plus those are easier to throw close-range, so I'm interested to see how they handle as a side arm in temporal storms.

 

1 minute ago, Thorfinn said:

I take it for granted that they didn't nerf low-level spears so much that they are useless in early game

I've not played the new update extensively, but the spears feel fine to me. I was able to kill a boar in about the same number of hits as I could in previous versions, and I say that as a Blackguard. 

[Thorfinn]

5 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I was able to kill a boar in about the same number of hits as I could in previous versions, and I say that as a Blackguard. 

Flint spears were a bit OP in the old version, IMO. My fiddling around with rebalancing them came up with +4 as fine, +3 as a little weak, using brown bears as the target. Not that I expect many to agree. //content.invisioncic.com/r268468/emoticons/wink.png 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

Plus those are easier to throw close-range, so I'm interested to see how they handle as a side arm in temporal storms.

It's always faster to swap to your side arm than it is to reload your current weapon.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

3 hours ago, Urmanin said:

1) Why would you add iron spears but nerf other spears to compensate? In which universe does this make sense? It just reads as "you make bronze spears out of iron now".

Probably to keep other weapons relevant. I didn't see them buffing the falx and bow+arrows to compensate

3 hours ago, Urmanin said:

2) Glacier ice changes: I suspect this is done entirely to combat ice elevators. In an update where elevators are now no longer in. That's great, man.

I'm sure they had this exact case in mind when making ice melt in temperatures above freezing... you know like it does IRL.

3 hours ago, Urmanin said:

3) Mechanical power changes: this is done just to spite the playerbase. Yeah, just ruin everyone's builds with no way to compensate, that's a great idea man.
So far 1.22 is looking like a straight downgrade to 1.21 due to these alone. Everything else added can already be done with mods.
Clearly this is an update aimed at adding mechanics that can be reused in the other game (which TOTALLY doesn't affect vs development, trust me guys), and not the promised mechanical power updates (outside of blowing up people's setups for no reason).

I looked at the promised mechanical power changes and I see nothing that points to or indicates that any builds of mine would be ruined. Granted I usually power a few things off a single windmill, but I've never geared it up to the point where friction between the wood pieces would cause them to catch fire. You should watch Primitive Technology and tell me how he starts fires using nothing but two wooden sticks.

Everything here is consistent with how Anego has been directing their game. We all knew this was coming long before the other games started development, it was just a matter of when. You'd have to be pretty far under a rock to think they wouldn't rug-pull game mechanics like this... looking at YOU, poultices!

[LadyWYT]

20 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

I looked at the promised mechanical power changes and I see nothing that points to or indicates that any builds of mine would be ruined.

I'm thinking it's mostly going to be a problem for the eldritch windmill monstrosities that have like, four rotors minimum and each one facing a cardinal direction. That is, the kind of windmill that would never work in real life, since the windmill blades would collide with each other and other basic physics concepts.

I would also say that the concept of friction stopping, or even damaging machinery, isn't exactly a new concept either when it comes to videogames. The Create mod for Minecraft is incredibly popular, and utilizes similar concepts. In the case of Vintage Story, it wouldn't be the first time that machines got "broken" with an update either. I think there used to be a way to build windmills underground, and that has since been patched out as it's obviously not intended behavior for a realistic survival game.

2 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

I kinda like this. Before, it was way too easy to get greenhouses going, and in quantity. Now, well, you have to make glass. I think. Maybe there's a workaround, but at least it isn't, "Make one trip to the mountains and you are good for your entire playthrough."

1 hour ago, Broccoli Clock said:

It's always felt odd for a realistic game to allow ice blocks taken from the top of the mountain will remain frozen no matter the temperature of the area you place them. I understand why, but it's still odd. Especially so when you have ice blocks in the water freezing the thawing due to temperature.

Pretty much. While I don't really care how others want to play the game, building functional greenhouses out of ice seems better suited to the whimsical nature of the other block game, rather than the realism of Vintage Story. It's also not a mechanic that I exploited myself, but I have seen it exploited before and it definitely left me scratching my head as a result. Glacier ice is fairly easy to get and unlike glass, requires no processing, so why would players sink resources into glass instead of scaling a mountain once?

Edit: Reading the patch notes again, I'm guessing that pre-existing ice elevators will still be functional. It's just that no new ones will be able to be built, and tinkering with old ones will likely break them.

Quote

Glacier Ice: Any glacier ice block placed by a player will now turn into a variant that will melt if ambient temperature is above freezing. Any previously placed glacier ice will not melt like this, until broken and placed again.

 

Edited February 5 by LadyWYT

[Thorfinn]

21 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Glacier Ice: Any glacier ice block placed by a player will now turn into a variant

Aha! I knew there would be a workaround. Now you just have to get your elk to build the greenhouse.

[LadyWYT]

1 minute ago, Thorfinn said:

Aha! I knew there would be a workaround. Now you just have to get your elk to build the greenhouse.

Or I mean, just mod it back to pre-1.22 behavior. Or perhaps even chisel it, if chiseling it is still possible. I've not tried the chisel method in 1.22 to see if that will stop the ice from melting or not. I would assume that it would, but would probably destroy the ice's ability to server as a glass substitute in the process. Even if that's not the case, it's easier to just make some real glass rather than try to chisel out a bunch of glacier ice.

[CastIronFabric]

4 hours ago, Urmanin said:

1) Why would you add iron spears but nerf other spears to compensate? In which universe does this make sense? It just reads as "you make bronze spears out of iron now".

2) Glacier ice changes: I suspect this is done entirely to combat ice elevators. In an update where elevators are now no longer in. That's great, man.
3) Mechanical power changes: this is done just to spite the playerbase. Yeah, just ruin everyone's builds with no way to compensate, that's a great idea man.
So far 1.22 is looking like a straight downgrade to 1.21 due to these alone. Everything else added can already be done with mods.
Clearly this is an update aimed at adding mechanics that can be reused in the other game (which TOTALLY doesn't affect vs development, trust me guys), and not the promised mechanical power updates (outside of blowing up people's setups for no reason).
 

1. that actually makes total sense to me. I would not be able to explain it coherently but it makes sense to me.

2. I cant speak to that.

3. I am not sure mechanical power changes actually affect existing mechanical power, it adds options does it not? maybe I need to look into this.

That all said, I am rather excited about this update, this update are the kind of features I personally want, less so story content.

 

[ArgentLuna]

Everything i read in the notes makes sense and to think its being done to "spite" players is a odd mindset. Players are very good at finding ways to play games that are not intended particuly in a game that is still very much under development and getting undergarments twisted when something changes. 

Personally im maybe going to have to look at gearing now because i have a set up where two windmills are very close to each other but its all fine, its a game feature ive ignored because it was easier to build another windmill for each machine than figure out gearing. 

[Thorfinn]

37 minutes ago, ArgentLuna said:

Personally im maybe going to have to look at gearing now because i have a set up where two windmills are very close to each other

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I've always thought placing windmills in different directions feeding the same top large gear was silly, so I've just made the tower a dozen blocks taller and put one rotor at a different elevation. Now maybe that's not going to work, or maybe the spacing needs to be more? Can you get more than 1 rotor between 170 and worldheight without interference? Dunno. I'll find out, I guess. If they need more spacing than can be done that way, it just argues you should build your mills atop a mountain.

[Dilan Rona]

8 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

8 hours ago, Urmanin said:

Also, unlike bows you will usually only have 1-2 spears to throw

What? Who that uses spears goes anywhere without 4, 5 or more, plus a stack of spearheads all ready to put on sticks?

 

As a rule, when actively hunting, i Always carry 4 spears, sticks and knappable stones (even when i reach bronze or iron age). So, I agree with @Thorfinn there.

Also, as far as WOODEN axles goes, if it spins too fast, it either catches fire (friction), or outright breaks. It's the one change I actually agree with as well. The fact that they warned that existing power and speed setups will smoke when going too fast gives plenty of warning to players to fix their existing builds so there is LESS problems when the final version is released. And the fact that they are adding water wheels is a bonus for me. Cause the power output will be more consistent, unlike wind. And if I had to choose between water power and wind power for my mechanical automation, water will ALWAYS win for me.

Changes to glacier ice, I'll have to agree with that one as well. Greenhouses are supposed to be from glass in any case. What would be nice though would be using the ice to make cold storage rooms, as currently implemented with Medieval Expansion and its Cellar ice. And I have never experienced anything like an ice elevator as well, so unless you can provide video evidence of you achieving that, I'm writing it off as a fable.

10 hours ago, Urmanin said:

this is done entirely to combat ice elevators. In an update where elevators are now no longer in

The elevator in the Devastation tower is still there to my knowledge. So, if they can't add elevators that players can make, I'm not going to loose sleep over that fact yet, there are other transport mods between floors in any case to cover that aspect till they can figure out a way to add proper elevators we can make.

Since were getting iron spears, it makes sense they would nerf the other spears a bit so as to not overpower the iron spears. Tier wise, they would be the best, so the others need to be scaled the same way they scaled the other weapons.

[Shane Clark]

uh... You can stay on 1.21 dude. You don't have to upgrade. Just never upgrade ever again and all your woes will go away. The rest of us however, appreciate the hard work of the devs and are excited to see this labor of love continue walking. The fact you're so invested in features that clearly were never intended to be permanent is a you problem not a game problem. 

[Brady_The]

There's also always the option to take this opportunity and start modding the game. Especially the spear damage will be a particularly easy modification.

Or just wait until somebody inevitably uploads a mod because that somebody doesn't like change either.

Edited February 6 by Brady_The

[loxdogs]

12 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

plus a stack of spearheads all ready to put on sticks?

This is genius! I have never thought about it. I always carry sticks with me, why don't I carry stack of spearheads?

[Dilan Rona]

Tbh I never thought of that myself, hence me hauling rocks with me, so I can make new spears if the need pushes and I got the time to do so. Otherwise i use whatever I have at hand (or hand to claw) to finish the job before I make new spears.

[jerjerje]

Ultimately, this is an early access game. Both nerfs and buffs have to be expected. The devs for this game have frequently patched out unintended behaviors and I don't see why they would stop now.

I never heard of this ice elevator before reading this thread. After some research, it doesn't seem like this is a very well known trick. Looking on YouTube, I was only able to find one video on it here. The video only has 3k views. It doesn't seem to me that the vast majority of the playerbase was even aware of this. Additionally, the creator of the video tests the speed of the elevator (at timestamp 3:55) and it doesn't even seem that fast compared to the elevator without ice.
But aside from that, this is clearly unintentional, so it was bound to be patched sooner or later.

The hyperspeed mechanical power contraptions and the physics-defying quad windmills have always seemed unintentional to me. I figured they might get patched at some point.
Aside from that, the patch notes clearly state "We hope to still add to 1.22.0, second tier, sturdier mechanical power parts to counteract this change", so the devs literally want to add a way to reduce this problem.
Additionally, they added the large windmill, which can likely be used to replace the previous quad windmill designs. Though, I haven't tested how much mechanical power the large windmill produces compared to the previous quad windmill.
It feels really weird to me to complain whenever the devs remove unrealistic features, while they are also adding ways to make similar things in a more realistic way. I don't see any issue with these changes.

There is no logical reason you couldn't hammer iron and steel into a spear, so it makes sense to add them. Unfortunately, game balance is a thing that must be respected. The devs felt that iron and steel spears would have been too powerful, so either they never add iron and steel spears (and there are constant complaints and suggestions about them) or the devs add them, but nerf the previous spears (might cause temporary complaints when this one update comes out). Personally, the nerf for previous tiers seems like the best choice.

[Irulana]

1)Spear is stone age weapon, in copper age is better to use falx. Spear melee attack should have just advantage in distance to keep enemies more far.

2) I build deep water elevators and they worked good without ice. I hope we get normal elevator soon.

3) I agree that it need some rework, we need vertical clutches to manage power supply so not to break installation. Second we have bellow, and a lot of mechanical power from water wheels  so why not to power bellows in late game? I don't like random break mechanic for tool, WTF? i hate RNG things, it should exist skill system that make you learn how to make better tools or something like that instead.

It will be annoying in multiplayer when you are blacksmith for village and you need to make 5 shovel, 6 pickaxes etc. You friends are having fun exploring and you stuck in base 

4) from me, color variant of ladders, I played with mod like that inventory management was a disaster. Instead of one stack of ladder you will have 5 crude ladders, 7 pine one and 15 oak ones taking you 3 slots so great...