How would you revamp Vintage Story's classes system?

[Calmest_of_lakes]

I think it's safe to say that Vintage Story's class system is more on the divisive side, with one class in particular (blackguards,) being extremely powerful with tolerable downsides, while others are more confusing on what their purpose/strengths are (clockmakers, malefactors,) one seemingly having a surperior counterpart (hunters vs malefactors,) and one specifically being redundant and seeming as if it was only intended for roleplay (clothiers.)

What changes would you make to the class system, or specific classes, to entice players to choose the more unpopular options and to disincentivize the "commoner or blackguard" mindset the current state gives players?
Would you do away with the class system entirely, or would you add more mechanics to make it more polished?

 

[LadyWYT]

I don't think I would change anything, aside from adding a couple more classes like alchemist/herbalist and noble, since those are specific jobs that would be appropriate for who the player character is, as well as jobs that don't easily fit under one of the other existing classes.

8 minutes ago, Calmest_of_lakes said:

What changes would you make to the class system, or specific classes, to entice players to choose the more unpopular options and to disincentivize the "commoner or blackguard" mindset the current state gives players?

I think what class a player picks hinges heavily on individual playstyle. Commoner is fairly popular because it's a straightforward experience--there are no downsides to account for, but there are also no upsides, and I think that's fine. Blackguard is quite strong, but I've not really gotten the impression that it's a particularly popular option aside from more veteran players, specific combat players, or players that just like the class lore. The gathering penalties and increased hunger rate are an immediate turn-off for many, despite the fact that Blackguard has a strong late game to account for a weak early game.

 

11 minutes ago, Calmest_of_lakes said:

one seemingly having a surperior counterpart (hunters vs malefactors,)

I wouldn't call Clockmaker a counterpart to Hunter at all. The classes have completely different flavors, with the only real overlap being they both have the same 10% speed boost.

Hunter is one of the strongest picks in the game, since the ranged bonuses make early hunting easier while still being very useful into the late game. The same applies to the animal harvesting bonus. The melee penalty is really only a concern if the Hunter gets ambushed or otherwise cannot soften up a target before it can engage the player in melee combat; the mining penalty equates to missing out on a bit of ore every now and then, which isn't really a big deal. In my opinion, Hunter is more similar to Commoner, but perhaps a little better, in that it has some very good bonuses for relatively little penalty.

Clockmaker is a strange class, in that it has a penalty to health and melee damage, so it's really not ideal for melee combat. While it doesn't have a penalty to ranged damage, it does have a -25% penalty to effective range, meaning that Clockmakers can't shoot as far as most other classes. Their main benefit in combat is the damage boost against mechanicals, and the ability to tame locusts. However, Blackguard will still outclass them on damage, I'm pretty sure, and the locust taming is tricky to balance since if it's too strong the Clockmaker easily becomes an instant pick over everything else. Their main strength, I think, lies in the reduced translocator repair cost; the Clockmaker can more easily explore the world, especially in the early game, if they're willing to take risks and go cave diving.

21 minutes ago, Calmest_of_lakes said:

one specifically being redundant and seeming as if it was only intended for roleplay (clothiers.)

The Tailor is an odd class given that it seems to be almost exclusively penalties, however, I think that's also fine considering what the class is. Tailors are meant for civilized life in the cities, not harsh survival in the wilds, so it's basically a challenge class for those who want a more "fish out of water" style of experience. Despite the penalty to foraging and animal harvesting and the penalty to health, Tailor is one of the better combat classes since it doesn't have penalties to ranged or melee damage, and has a bonus to armor durability. It's at least equal to, if not a little stronger than, the Commoner in that regard.

As for Malefactors, it's perhaps the strongest early game class, in exchange for being the weakest in the late game(in my opinion). The foraging bonuses will help them survive better in the early game, as well as make it easier to get farms going with less work. The bonus to looting means they can get rich rather quickly and take more advantage of trading, while the boost to stealth means they don't need to worry as much about hostile wildlife(potentially monsters as well, though I don't know if the stealth bonus applies here). However, the penalty to range, melee damage, and health means that Malefactor is going to struggle in all types of combat, which really hurts going into the late game as that tends to be when the player is getting into more fights. Likewise, foraging and stealth bonuses aren't as useful in the late game since the player will have established farms and livestock for food, and have good enough equipment to handle the local wildlife threats.

[Calmest_of_lakes]

8 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I wouldn't call Clockmaker a counterpart to Hunter at all. The classes have completely different flavors, with the only real overlap being they both have the same 10% speed boost.

I was saying hunters seemed to be a better version of malefactors! But, I do agree that picking malefactor seems to gimp you in the long term, if anything, considering the harvest bonus doesn't apply to most crops.

Clockmakers also seem to be the fastest class, with a +10% movement speed advantage. Outside of that, I wonder why they exist.

For clothiers, I still think that having better durability for armor, and being better at repairing clothing isn't enough to outweigh the downsides at all. By the time you do get armor, the player should have enough resources/a big enough farm to not worry about running out of material to repair your gear. 

Edited March 3 by Calmest_of_lakes

[Zane Mordien]

35 minutes ago, Calmest_of_lakes said:

(blackguards,) being extremely powerful with tolerable downsides

Maybe but Blackguard probably isn't what a new player should choose either. You have to learn how to get food before you pick blackguard. Other than that, yeah it's the best class IMO.

36 minutes ago, Calmest_of_lakes said:

disincentivize the "commoner or blackguard"

I think Hunter is another class with tolerable downsides and it helps you early on with food.This is my recommended class to anyone new to the game. Atlhough with the 1.22 spear nerf, that may not be the case anymore

 

10 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Clockmaker is a strange class, in that it has a penalty to health and melee damage, so it's really not ideal for melee combat. While it doesn't have a penalty to ranged damage, it does have a -25% penalty to effective range, meaning that Clockmakers can't shoot as far as most other classes. Their main benefit in combat is the damage boost against mechanicals, and the ability to tame locusts. However, Blackguard will still outclass them on damage, I'm pretty sure, and the locust taming is tricky to balance since if it's too strong the Clockmaker easily becomes an instant pick over everything else. Their main strength, I think, lies in the reduced translocator repair cost; the Clockmaker can more easily explore the world, especially in the early game, if they're willing to take risks and go cave diving.

I really wish they would give clockmaker something to make up for the massive debuffs. Translocators are just not that powerful anymore now that 1) gears are harder to get and 2) the elk or boat can travel just as far without the hassle of exploring caves to find the translocators. I wish they would buff the translocator to let it go further and the clockmaker should be able to repair it with one temporal gear and 2 rusty gears, set the teleportation range up to 10K and pick the direction. If that seems to powerful then maybe they could add a second temporal gear to pick the range and direction since they know how these things work.

[LadyWYT]

3 minutes ago, Calmest_of_lakes said:

I was saying hunters seemed to be a better version of malefactors! But, I do agree that picking malefactor seems to gimp you in the long term, if anything, considering the harvest bonus doesn't apply to most crops.

Oops. I can read, I swear!  Yeah, I mostly agree there. Or at least, that's how it feels those two classes should be, but they don't quite feel that way in actual practice, I think. Mind you, I don't want to nerf hunter as I don't think that really helps anything. I do think that Hunter is going to be a little more balanced in 1.22 thanks to the spear changes and other additions to the game. In the early game, Hunter will be much more focused on hunting wildlife for food, before shifting focus into more of a proper archer in the late game. Malefactor will be a more attractive pick since wild grains won't be dropping as much, meaning that Malefactor will have an advantage when it comes to getting early windmills/linen sacks/other linen goods.

 

7 minutes ago, Calmest_of_lakes said:

Clockmakers also seem to be the fastest class, with a +10% movement speed advantage. Outside of that, I wonder why they exist.

They exist for certain lore reasons. I think they're supposed to be engineers, essentially, but...well, without more Jonas tech stuff they don't really have much to engineer. Once more Jonas tech gets added the class might see some changes.

As for speed, they're matched with Hunter. Ironically, both Hunter and Clockmaker are the fastest classes in armor. The one exception is plate armor, where they are evenly matched with Blackguard.

9 minutes ago, Calmest_of_lakes said:

For clothiers, I still think that having better durability for armor, and being better at repairing clothing isn't enough to outweigh the downsides at all. By the time you do get armor, the player should have enough resources/a big enough farm to not worry about running out of material to repair your gear. 

I forgot to mention it, but one change I would like to see to Tailors is some kind of trade/social bonus when interacting with NPCs. They're a merchant type class, with the most manners of anyone! They should be great at getting better prices for stuff!

 

3 minutes ago, Zane Mordien said:

Maybe but Blackguard probably isn't what a new player should choose either. You have to learn how to get food before you pick blackguard. Other than that, yeah it's the best class IMO.

Pretty much. A new player can still handle it just fine if that's what they really want to play, but it will make for a more difficult experience. 

For 1.22 right now, the Blackguard seems to be getting a bit weaker in the early game but even stronger in the late game due to changes to animal behavior, spears, and the new smithing processes.

5 minutes ago, Zane Mordien said:

I think Hunter is another class with tolerable downsides and it helps you early on with food.This is my recommended class to anyone new to the game. Atlhough with the 1.22 spear nerf, that may not be the case anymore

I would say Hunter is still a very solid class choice for new players, even with the spear nerfs. The damage itself is still solid but the big game changer is the time it takes to charge a spear shot. Spears were ridiculous before since they could be fired almost as rapidly as a bow; now firing a spear is a much more deliberate action. That's why I'm expecting Hunter to be more focused on actually hunting animals for food in the early game, and not being as strong in combat until later when they have better bow/spear options available.

 

[Cooked_Artichoke]

2 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I forgot to mention it, but one change I would like to see to Tailors is some kind of trade/social bonus when interacting with NPCs. They're a merchant type class, with the most manners of anyone! They should be great at getting better prices for stuff!

Just to throw my two cents in the ring with an idea for tailor I had buzzing around in my head for a while now. What if the tailors had a benefit towards medicine, which wouldn't negate the downsides they have, but still make it slightly more appealing to play as. Head Cannon is just that down in the underground when everything was going to shit, someone who stitches cloth would be the closest thing they have to a surgeon, so I think it would be interesting if clothiers could stitch up themselves or another player if their hp is low enough and given they can sit still for long enough and have a sewing kit on hand. It wouldn't heal as fast as the other medical items, but could heal a percentage of the health pool over a longer time. They would still be weak as hell and a mountain of downsides, but at least if you manage to get out of a scrape alive you can bounce back from it a bit healthier than other classes.

[LadyWYT]

8 minutes ago, Cooked_Artichoke said:

Just to throw my two cents in the ring with an idea for tailor I had buzzing around in my head for a while now. What if the tailors had a benefit towards medicine, which wouldn't negate the downsides they have, but still make it slightly more appealing to play as. Head Cannon is just that down in the underground when everything was going to shit, someone who stitches cloth would be the closest thing they have to a surgeon, so I think it would be interesting if clothiers could stitch up themselves or another player if their hp is low enough and given they can sit still for long enough and have a sewing kit on hand. It wouldn't heal as fast as the other medical items, but could heal a percentage of the health pool over a longer time. They would still be weak as hell and a mountain of downsides, but at least if you manage to get out of a scrape alive you can bounce back from it a bit healthier than other classes.

I think that's better suited to an alchemist or herbalist than the Tailor. Tailors are predominantly concerned with clothing, and while they could have tried their hand at medical work, that's a rather specialized field. I don't think they would have picked up the trade that quickly.

[metl182]

I don't ever bother with the classes and turn off restricted recipes. For class systems to really work, each class needs to be genuinely unique and give very clear reasons why you should choose one over another, but then that leads down never-ended balance issues. I really think a better way would be a skill system similar to Traveller ttrpg. Then again, I've always favored skill-based character systems over class ones, so I might have a bias 

[Broccoli Clock]

I see no issue with tweaks here and there, but the fact that there are classes and that those classes are diverse in their crafting/nerfs/buffs is a positive so I think wholescale changes would be detrimental. I do think that there is room to expand the number of classes, especially if herbalism is coming to the game. This class dynamic really pays off in a multiplayer setting and sets it apart from most of its peers. 

Here's the thing though, I only play solo, so choose commoner. Depending on how I am doing, I may choose to unlock the class restrictions, but for the most part anything that I can't craft (for example the recursive bow as a commoner) I'll get from the traders. In fact, other than the sling which I've never seen on sale and isn't listed as an item for sale, I don't think there is anything that is class specific crafted that can't be bought.

 

[ifoz]

Honestly I think integrating the idea of a potential herbalist class into the Malefactor would be an interesting way to give them a definitive lategame buff, even if it might not be the strongest out there. Since they're already foragers, herbalism might be a decent fit given their existing knowledge of plants.

Alchemy is a system I can see potentially being like smithing - something the devs might want all classes to engage in equally, and so might opt not to have a specific alchemist class who is any better. I have no idea if this will be the case when alchemy is added, but I do wonder if they might choose to go that route. Alchemy is very important to the lore after all, so it'd make sense if it could be used for a variety of useful things.

[Broccoli Clock]

31 minutes ago, ifoz said:

Honestly I think integrating the idea of a potential herbalist class into the Malefactor would be an interesting way to give them a definitive lategame buff, even if it might not be the strongest out there. Since they're already foragers, herbalism might be a decent fit given their existing knowledge of plants.

This is a much better idea than having a dedicated herbalist class, which was sort of what I hinted at in my reply.

You mention smithing, and it's odd there are no class specifics for that. Similar to the tailor class, but I understand how integral smithing is to all class progression so maybe not the best idea of tinkering with it. Although the quenching and expansion of smithing does open it up for such things.

[CastIronFabric]

Object Oriented Classes.

What you wear or carry will represent the 'class' that you are and all its restrictions and benefits. This way one is not restricted for 200+ hours of game play as one class type. If one enjoys the class picked, then fine one can be that 'class' for the full 200+ hours. However if one ends up not enjoying a class then they should not be restricted from changing if it they like, we have to keep in mind, this is a game not a punishment simulator.

 

[LadyWYT]

1 hour ago, CastIronFabric said:

Object Oriented Classes.

What you wear or carry will represent the 'class' that you are and all its restrictions and benefits. This way one is not restricted for 200+ hours of game play as one class type. If one enjoys the class picked, then fine one can be that 'class' for the full 200+ hours. However if one ends up not enjoying a class then they should not be restricted from changing if it they like, we have to keep in mind, this is a game not a punishment simulator.

 

The player can already change their class via console command, if they so desire. Otherwise, given that classes are specific people in the lore and story, and have appropriate class-specific interactions, it's not really possible to let the player switch classes with ease like that as it leads to either significant cognitive dissonance in the story telling, or the story itself to be the same generic experience for every player rather than something that differs depending on certain player choices.

 

14 hours ago, metl182 said:

For class systems to really work, each class needs to be genuinely unique and give very clear reasons why you should choose one over another, but then that leads down never-ended balance issues.

This is essentially how the classes already work, in my opinion. Each one has clear strengths and weaknesses, as well as specific lore and interactions unavailable to other classes. However, the benefits are never really so strong that any class becomes an instant pick lest the player miss out, nor are any of the weaknesses detrimental to the point that a class gets soft-locked out of specific types of gameplay. If Vintage Story were a purely multiplayer experience then the class traits could be stronger than they are, since there would be other players there to assist, but Vintage Story is designed to be a solid singleplayer experience too.Thus each class needs to be able to function on its own well enough that the player can enjoy every aspect of the game as well as complete the main story without issue.

[CastIronFabric]

21 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

The player can already change their class via console command, if they so desire. Otherwise, given that classes are specific people in the lore and story, and have appropriate class-specific interactions, it's not really possible to let the player switch classes with ease like that as it leads to either significant cognitive dissonance in the story telling, or the story itself to be the same generic experience for every player rather than something that differs depending on certain player choices.

.

I would advocate Object Oriented Classes over changing it via console command as a game ruleset. Not to mention the OOC approach adds a lot of interesting possibilities where doing something similar using console commands would not have the same experience.

To put a deeper dive into what I am talking about let me use an example: Lets say your in multiplayer and you crew is planning to go to the RA (or future dungeons) you want to go with them but you are a Cook. Well with OOC you can put your chef suit down, and pick up your whatever shoes or chain or whatever to be a fighter so that you can then join them. This also gives people who want to make clothing more things to make.

 

Edited March 3 by CastIronFabric

[LadyWYT]

4 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

To put a deeper dive into what I am talking about let me use an example: Lets say your in multiplayer and you crew is planning to go to the RA (or future dungeons) you want to go with them but you are a Cook. Well with OOC you can put your chef suit down, and pick up your whatever shoes or chain or whatever to be a fighter so that you can then join them. This also gives people who want to make clothing more things to make.

Which really doesn't make any sense other than being an explicit videogame convenience for the player. Simply picking up a frying pan doesn't make one a chef, same as picking up a bow doesn't make one an expert archer. And as I said before, the player's class is tied to certain NPC interactions. Tying player class to specific equipment would muddy the waters and either result in some very confusing scenarios(why are NPCs treating you like you've been a Hunter your whole life one moment, and then treating you like a Blackguard thug the next when you show up in Blackguard gear?), or a very watered down story experience where the interactions are always the same regardless of player choice.

One of those NPCs that references player class is rather important as well:

Spoiler

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/Tobias#Dialogue

Tobias was the close friend of Jonas Falx, and seems to have worked with the player on several occasions, though how closely depends heavily upon the player's choice of class. He seems to be the most familiar with Clockmakers, having worked with them personally, though he seems quite familiar with the other classes as well(save for custom classes, for which there is no familiar dialogue possible).

That kind of personal history and interaction really isn't possible if the player can just change their entire history on a whim.

 

[CastIronFabric]

11 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Which really doesn't make any sense other than being an explicit videogame convenience for the player. Simply picking up a frying pan doesn't make one a chef, same as picking up a bow doesn't make one an expert archer. And as I said before, the player's class is tied to certain NPC interactions. Tying player class to specific equipment would muddy the waters and either result in some very confusing scenarios(why are NPCs treating you like you've been a Hunter your whole life one moment, and then treating you like a Blackguard thug the next when you show up in Blackguard gear?), or a very watered down story experience where the interactions are always the same regardless of player choice.

One of those NPCs that references player class is rather important as well:

  Reveal hidden contents

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/Tobias#Dialogue

Tobias was the close friend of Jonas Falx, and seems to have worked with the player on several occasions, though how closely depends heavily upon the player's choice of class. He seems to be the most familiar with Clockmakers, having worked with them personally, though he seems quite familiar with the other classes as well(save for custom classes, for which there is no familiar dialogue possible).

That kind of personal history and interaction really isn't possible if the player can just change their entire history on a whim.

 

well if you want to go down that road (which would strongly divert from how it works now) then I would suggest the model of Wurm. In Wurm you can skill up in any direction you want or all directions if you like, there really is not any 'classes' at all. There are however more than 100 skills you can increase by doing and you can increase your skill in all of them, or just some of them depending on your desire. To be fair, Wurm skill progression points are extremely slow but that can be easily adjusted with a json file to be frank so that part is really not an architectural defect. What I like about OOC over this model is that one can never be all things all the time.

That said, I personally am conflicted with skill based lock systems verses soft lock 'Object Oriented Progression System' which is what Vintage Story is. I like both but when it comes to skill point progression I really really do not like hard locks and abilities you select from a tree of choices (like Xskill) and I really do not like how 7 days to die does it where killing zombies can increase your cooking skill if you put your perk points there. I am having none of that.

 

Edited March 3 by CastIronFabric

[LadyWYT]

4 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

well if you want to go down that road (which would strongly divert from how it works now) then I would suggest the model of Wurm. In Wurm you can skill up in any direction you want or all directions if you like, there really is not any 'classes' at all. There are however more than 100 skills you can increase by doing and you can increase your skill in all of them, or just some of them depending on your desire. To be fair, Wurm skill progression points are extremely slow but that can be easily adjusted with a json file to be frank so that part is really not an architectural defect.

That said, I personally am conflicted with skill based lock systems verses soft lock 'Object Oriented Progression System' which is what Vintage Story is. I like both but when it comes to skill point progression I really really do not like hard locks and abilities you select from a tree of choices (like Xskill) and I really do not like how 7 days to die does it where killing zombies can increase your cooking skill if you put your perk points there. I am having none of that.

 

I like skill-based progression, but I don't think it really fits with what Vintage Story is very well. It also has the major flaw of being a bit of a snowball system, in that in multiplayer scenarios it's very easy for players to fall behind the power curve simply because they didn't play as frequently as other players. What I like about Vintage Story's progression is that it's not really gated behind specific skills. The player can achieve pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, provided they have the experience and knowledge required to pull it off. No need to grind one's smithing skill to X level to be able to work steel, in other words. 

Regarding the classes themselves, I like that each class is a specific individual, with a specific history in the world. They aren't just arbitrary collections of buffs, debuffs, and cosmetics.

[CastIronFabric]

3 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I like skill-based progression, but I don't think it really fits with what Vintage Story is very well. It also has the major flaw of being a bit of a snowball system, in that in multiplayer scenarios it's very easy for players to fall behind the power curve simply because they didn't play as frequently as other players. What I like about Vintage Story's progression is that it's not really gated behind specific skills. The player can achieve pretty much whatever they want, whenever they want, provided they have the experience and knowledge required to pull it off. No need to grind one's smithing skill to X level to be able to work steel, in other words. 

Regarding the classes themselves, I like that each class is a specific individual, with a specific history in the world. They aren't just arbitrary collections of buffs, debuffs, and cosmetics.

yup.

If this was my game I would do the following:

-Progression not hard locked behind a skill system (aka how VS works currently) and stick with that general philosophy

-I would add a skill system that makes you better at something the more you do it. It does not lock you out of anything but you become better at it, so maybe your food dishes are better, maybe your axe lasts longer the better you are at using it and the better you are at smithing it, maybe if you are not good at something yet you can fail or break something etc.

-I would add items that boosts your abilities even more in certain areas (what I was calling Object Oriented classes) though but I would not make game play dependent on this.

I did not realize this but the first two is literally how Wurm works.

 

 

[Thorfinn]

22 hours ago, Calmest_of_lakes said:

Would you do away with the class system entirely

This one. If we were talking a full-on RPG either classes or skills would be appropriate, but this is more of an exploration/builder. The classes seem tacked on, and while not the intent, is at the root of a lot of the balancing discussions.

[Slam]

21 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I forgot to mention it, but one change I would like to see to Tailors is some kind of trade/social bonus when interacting with NPCs. They're a merchant type class, with the most manners of anyone! They should be great at getting better prices for stuff!

I remember an argument against this because in a multiplayer setting, they’d the ones trading, and everyone would just send them to go trade.

besides, the tailors already accomplish this, as many of they’re exclusives items can be sold to traders, while allows others to trade as it isn’t “unoptimized”

remember, players will optimize the fun out of the game, and for something as bauble as gears, compared to a few less ores as hunters. No other class would trade, as they would just wait for the dedicated trader to save or gain an extra gear.

[LadyWYT]

37 minutes ago, Slam said:

I remember an argument against this because in a multiplayer setting, they’d the ones trading, and everyone would just send them to go trade.

besides, the tailors already accomplish this, as many of they’re exclusives items can be sold to traders, while allows others to trade as it isn’t “unoptimized”

remember, players will optimize the fun out of the game, and for something as bauble as gears, compared to a few less ores as hunters. No other class would trade, as they would just wait for the dedicated trader to save or gain an extra gear.

This is true, but in the context of multiplayer I would point out that it's a self-inflicted problem. Class bonuses are nice, yes, but just because the Hunter has a bonus to harvesting animals and ranged damage doesn't mean that the Blackguard or Tailor can't go out and hunt the evening meal or deal with butchering the livestock. For singleplayer, trading bonuses would be quite useful, I think, as well as offering an interesting option that the other classes just don't.

Plus in the context of multiplayer, it's really not a good idea to entrust one's valuables to another player. Very easy to let a few gears or goods go missing, or otherwise start charging for acting as the middleman. Which, now that I think about it, could also apply just as easily to the other classes as well, if they get pressured into using their time to min-max for others rather than just doing what they'd actually like to do.

As for tailor-exclusive recipes, yes, that is a trading bonus after a fashion, however, many of those items can be looted from ruins and repaired, if not just crafted by any class if class-exclusive recipes are turned off.

[Jacsmac]

Currently, classes are a nice way to mix up the gameplay at different points of progression, but it feels like the current implementation can't decide how far it wants to push class-specific traits and crafting recipes.
Clear examples of classes that lean heavily into their niches would be Blackguard and Tailor, with obvious stat differences and very helpful exclusive recipes (best shield in the game, arguably best travel armor in the game). However, as discussed in this thread, there are issues with multiplayer interaction between classes and the singleplayer experience of being "locked out" of parts of the experience when being stuck with one class.
 

This suggestion might sound counter-intuitive at first, but I recommend that each class should lean more into specific crafting recipes and gameplay styles. If the hunter is better at using bows and the blackguard better at using swords, maybe the way combat works/looks for them should change a bit to reflect the difference; if the malefactor is so good at foraging and scavenging, why is the only thing left to show this a sling and not better traps?
If every class gets a large set of specific crafting recipes (like how many clothes the Tailor can make), then there is more incentive for trading to be between players rather than just having the tailor do all the trading with their exclusive recipes and such. If each class has their own fighting style, the choice of class holds more weight than a few stat changes.

Obviously, making the classes this different and unique pushes the FOMO problem to its extreme limits. So, what can be done?

Well, the game is full of ruins that contain lore and unique treasures, and there are plenty of ways to get old books. Perhaps some of these lore books could contain recipes for other classes' unique crafting items, which would allow people on singleplayer worlds to expand outside of their class's niche, or the unique items could be found in chests (like the clothes that can only be crafted by the tailor being found in ruins). Even still, the option to disable class-exclusive recipes is an option in the world settings, and perhaps the combat changes should be too if they were implemented.

 

Going the other way around, if classes aren't supposed to fill their exclusive niches and just offer some stat differences for a slightly different gameplay experience, then the number of class-exclusive recipes should be close to zero and the focus should just be on stats instead. I hold an all-or-nothing opinion on things like this.

[Jacsmac]

Just now, Jacsmac said:

Going the other way around, if classes aren't supposed to fill their exclusive niches and just offer some stat differences for a slightly different gameplay experience, then the number of class-exclusive recipes should be close to zero and the focus should just be on stats instead. I hold an all-or-nothing opinion on things like this.

This said, I think the commoner class could just be a setting that disables classes.

Since most aspects of the game like building and exploration should be equally fun and challenging for each class, a class whose purpose is to have no effect on these things feels a bit unnecessary; with the obtainable class-exclusive recipes approach, starting with zero recipes from any of the other classes as a commoner would offer pretty much no overhead on the collectathon that the large number of recipes would be. 

I would imagine that the "commoners" in Vintage Story lore were just people with common jobs rather than no job, like farmers, cooks, etc. Therefore, commoners could be replaced with one or two classes that have exclusive recipes related to those jobs but not much of a change in combat mechanics.

[Slam]

17 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

This is true, but in the context of multiplayer I would point out that it's a self-inflicted problem. Class bonuses are nice, yes, but just because the Hunter has a bonus to harvesting animals and ranged damage doesn't mean that the Blackguard or Tailor can't go out and hunt the evening meal or deal with butchering the livestock. For singleplayer, trading bonuses would be quite useful, I think, as well as offering an interesting option that the other classes just don't.

I don’t think the other class bonus could compare, yeah, anyone can hunt or mine, but what we’re losing a little meat, or a little bit ore. The problem is gears are just too valuable, consistent gears take a lot of work, and few gears you find early game can save you a lot of work with linen sacks, or buying lime.

 

18 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Plus in the context of multiplayer, it's really not a good idea to entrust one's valuables to another player. Very easy to let a few gears or goods go missing, or otherwise start charging for acting as the middleman. Which, now that I think about it, could also apply just as easily to the other classes as well, if they get pressured into using their time to min-max for others rather than just doing what they'd actually like to do.

This seems to be applying to a server with random people, what if a group of friends being communist, then the entrusting of task, doesn’t become a problem and min maxing becomes more a problem.

 

18 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

As for tailor-exclusive recipes, yes, that is a trading bonus after a fashion, however, many of those items can be looted from ruins and repaired, if not just crafted by any class if class-exclusive recipes are turned off.

I ment like tailor is able to create valuable items that can be consistently sold, I think tailor items being treasure is nice, limits the player less on how they customize their character, but treasure is not consist income unlike growing field of flax then turned more profitable via turning it to cloths.

if the tailor had the trader class, I would change the quest, (I don’t know what quest are like, so maybe what I’m saying is stupid) not like better rewards or easier quest but on option to add on top of it, so more work, but more reward, other classes could do something similar, but tailor would be able to do it for any quest, not just quest more related to a certain class. The tailor would also be able to sell more before the trader stops buying, be able to buy special bulk deal, request certain category’s of items for the next restock (ie bricks, doors, linen bags).

[Slam]

40 minutes ago, Jacsmac said:

Obviously, making the classes this different and unique pushes the FOMO problem to its extreme limits. So, what can be done?

I notice traders sell class exclusive equipment, such as the recurve bow, perhaps better then learning them via recipes?