Do we need Temporal Storms?

[Mikel Monleón]

Let me start off by saying I really loved it when the first storm hit. Seeing the land shifting for the first time was a very unique experience, and I very much appreciated it.

But, I feel like the storm, and drifters, are an odd addition to the gameplay experience. Vintage Story seems very focused on hyperrealism. What makes this game so amazing is just how tedious and detailed every process is, and how accurate it represents the development of humanity. Frankly, I've never had such an immersive gaming experience. Having to naturally select animals, fend off wolves, prepare for the winter, it all ties in so well together, it feels like I'm actually living in the time period. 

However, I find the storms and drifters, that element of fantasy very off putting, as if it didn't belong in that world. I imagine if temporal storms did exist, the physics, chemistry, plant and animal life would be very different to real life. I would love to see a game like that, but I don't feel like that's the direction Vintage story is going.

Why not eliminate the storms and fantastical creatures entirely? Focus more on the realism. Perhaps the periodic threat, or challenge to the game, could be having to compete with other NPC humans. Imagine if there were other tribes that could hunt you down, or even kingdoms that could pillage you. 
Perhaps it doesn't have to be entirely void of fantasy, but the drifters seem odd, maybe Vintage Story should take in some inspiration from Witcher III, and base its universe in a more concrete mythology. I don't think it needs it, but if they need some explanation to justify re-spawning, magic is usually the easy way to do it. 

I'm not sure if other people feel this way, but I feel very strongly about this. I love the direction Vintage Story is taking, but I think temporal storms takes away from the immersion.  

Edited December 14, 2020 by Mikel Monleón

[Streetwind]

27 minutes ago, Mikel Monleón said:

Vintage Story seems very focused on hyperrealism.

It seems that way because the game is still in alpha, and far from feature-complete. There will be more to the fantasy aspect later. The temporal storms and drifters are just the first part.

For example, if you look into this thread, one of the options was offering lovecraft-inspired story content and giant monsters. It may not have been chosen for 1.15, but it will come at some point. You can already dig up lore fragments today that offer glimpses into the background story of the world, and they quite strongly imply that some rather spooky things have happened prior to the player's arrival.

Oh, and as for the player character.... like... have you looked at the skin tone selections in the character creator?  It's dominated entirely by blue, grey, and beige tones. You can also stay underwater indefinitely. Does not sound very human at all, does it? In fact, the player character is referred to as a 'seraph' by the game, not as a 'human'.

"Hyperrealism" is also the wrong word in the first place. Many processes in Vintage Story feel realistic, but strictly speaking aren't. For example, metalworking completely ignores metal temperature limitations. Copper nuggets will melt at 1084°C, and pure copper in a crucible at 975°C; yet, when you heat up a copper ingot in a forge, you can happily push it to 1100°C and it will remain perfectly solid. And all the metals - even tin and lead - can be heated to this same 1100°C temperature limit, regardless of which fuel is used, and can be worked through the same temperature range. This may be something that gets improved on later... or it might not be because it works well enough already. We'll have to see.

You can spot such minor inconsitencies and intentional simplifications everywhere if you look. But you typically don't look, because it feels close enough.

This concept actually has a name: designing for "believable". Realism is a terrible design goal, because tanning leather with primitive methods could take up to a year IRL; but if you can offer a reasonable approximation of the process and just make it take a much shorter amount of time that's acceptable in terms of gameplay, it becomes believable enough for the player to stop noticing that something isn't as it would be IRL.

[redram]

Moreover, there is already a game menu config option to disable temporal storms and temporal instability entirely.  It would be fairly trivial to remove the 'unreal' mobs via mod, as well, and I'd imagine something like that will pop up on the mod scene eventually.  The gameplay balance (in terms of incentive to advance in tech) will get out of whack though - You don't really need anything higher than iron or even bronze to dominate wolves.

[caffeine9999]

Quote

Do we need Temporal Storms?

Sure we do. The surrealistic, eldritch touch is very much appreciated. I'd be happy to see further development of these mechanics

[l33tmaan]

2 hours ago, redram said:

It would be fairly trivial to remove the 'unreal' mobs via mod, as well, and I'd imagine something like that will pop up on the mod scene eventually.

Ah, yes... "eventually."

[Mikel Monleón]

8 hours ago, Streetwind said:

"Hyperrealism" is also the wrong word in the first place.

When I said "focused on hyperrealism," I implied that the game was attempting to depict real life in a close to accurate manner. The days and nights are only 20 minutes long and the world is made out of blocks. I think it goes without say that Vintage Story is not a 100% replication of reality. 

The point I was making is that, most of the game mechanics in place, and the overall gaming experience so far, it feels like it doesn't require temporal storms or drifters for it to become a complete game. I would prefer more themes that are consistent with the game progression. Having perhaps other NPC humans (or Seraphs) throughout the world that are in the different development stages (with flint weapons, bronze armor, etc) would be more thematically consistent with the game, and pose enough of a challenge to the player to keep it entertaining. 

Drifters and temporal storms just seems out of place to me. My time playing this game has been a very immersive experience feeling like I am living in that time period, doing what I can to stay alive. Tending to the crops, leather, breeding animals, running away from wolves. Just having these little monkey goblins popping out of thin air, just takes me out of it. What is the relationship that drifters have with the environment? Do they also hunt wolves to gather food to survive? They seem like an afterthought, and I feel like modding the game to remove them, and the storms, would leave an empty void in challenge, that could otherwise be developed in a different way. 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Mikel Monleón

[Yukihira_S]

What it would be nice to have in my opinion is a way to enhance the temporal stability in a restricted area. Some kind of craftable machine which nullify the effects of temporal storm. I think it will be part of base's security and moreover, the mere crafting of such a machine could be a quest. 

[caffeine9999]

That would be very nice. It's a bummer to find a perfectly suitable place for a base only to abandon it because the area is temporally unstable

[l33tmaan]

I think there's an implication as to why they exist, but it's not something you're going to find out without crashing some underground ruins. I hope it all becomes MORE integrated into the game so it feels like less of an afterthought.

[Mikel Monleón]

3 hours ago, l33tmaan said:

I think there's an implication as to why they exist, but it's not something you're going to find out without crashing some underground ruins. I hope it all becomes MORE integrated into the game so it feels like less of an afterthought.

I hope so too. I honestly wouldn't mind temporal storms if they felt like they belonged. Like what if the world wasn't a planet but a more metaphysical plane of existence. It could curve inward so in the distance you could see land curving towards the sky. If you travel further away from spawn there would be more temporal instability. Maybe energy doesn't come from the sun but through the temporal storms, so plant and animal life could be unique and bizarre looking and get drastically more extravagant the further you travel. Maybe plants glow in the dark?

Also, why are drifters hostile? and what do little sloth creatures have to do with bending and twisting space? 

I don't think the developers have built the world from the ground up with temporal storms in mind. Even if they do add more lore, unless they change everything, it will always feel like an afterthought to me. 

 

[l33tmaan]

15 minutes ago, Mikel Monleón said:

Like what if the world wasn't a planet but a more metaphysical plane of existence. It could curve inward so in the distance you could see land curving towards the sky. If you travel further away from spawn there would be more temporal instability. Maybe energy doesn't come from the sun but through the temporal storms, so plant and animal life could be unique and bizarre looking and get drastically more extravagant the further you travel. Maybe plants glow in the dark?

That sounds like a great idea, sort of like what people would make up about the farlands in Minecraft. Might as well make the worldgen get funkier and funkier the farther you travel from spawn.

[Ender Riens]

Theming is a bit of a touchy subject. As much as I'd like to see the game lean solely towards a better, more realistic version of Minecraft, the devs have a vision for the game and it is a tough topic to suggest removing all the Lovecraftian and fantasy elements that they have implemented/planned. As of right now you have a way to circumvent some of it (disabling temporal storms/stability, etc.) and more may come, and I have confidence that mods may support the experience you're looking for in the future if not now.

I personally think the fantasy elements keep the game interesting, and many others may or may not share the same opinion. It's impossible to please everyone.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Ender Riens

[kkserver]

While I do look forward to proper villages being implemented, I feel like replacing drifters with human enemies could ruin part of the immersion, if not done very carefully, as people expect a lot more from a "human" AI compared to a monster AI.

[Mikel Monleón]

11 hours ago, kkserver said:

While I do look forward to proper villages being implemented, I feel like replacing drifters with human enemies could ruin part of the immersion, if not done very carefully, as people expect a lot more from a "human" AI compared to a monster AI.

True. Though the drifter AI is a bit odd as well.

In terms of battle mechanics, I feel like it wouldn't have to be too complicated for a human enemy to be believable. Having a mixture of archers and close range enemies would pose enough of a challenge, even if the AI is very simple. I'm thinking like skeletons and zombies from Minecraft, but with a damage boost. Probably the challenge would be creating AI that interacts with their environment in a believable way. It would be cool to see it implemented well, with leatherworkers, blacksmiths, etc going about their day, leaving their village to scout and having an overall dynamic and somewhat unpredictable behavior. 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Mikel Monleón

[Domkrats]

It could be made similar to S.T.A.L.K.E.R game where if being in shelter you are safe. That way ones who enjoy fighting drifters go outside, others can stay inside and pan the storm away.   Maybe it would be hard for game to understand what is shelter and what is not though.

While i am o.k. with storms myself, (Also now its good source of linen, which is valuable after 1.14) it is just, that on server i am playing, most of the players quit game for storm then come back. It seems, the one, who enjoy building in this game and have all the recources, aren't enjoying storms too much.
 

One thing for me...I am playing this game only 1-2 hours a day after job. There have been days where i join to server with an idea for a good trip to caves, which is ruined by storm. The on on another day same happens with my adventure to far trader. This wouldn't be a problem if i play all day, but having only limited time to play, it sometimes ruins my experience that day.

But i agree Redram that game has enough options to remove strorms and instability that way you would deal with drifters only in caves or during nights, which is easy.

On 12/14/2020 at 3:14 PM, redram said:

Moreover, there is already a game menu config option to disable temporal storms and temporal instability entirely.  It would be fairly trivial to remove the 'unreal' mobs via mod, as well, and I'd imagine something like that will pop up on the mod scene eventually.  The gameplay balance (in terms of incentive to advance in tech) will get out of whack though - You don't really need anything higher than iron or even bronze to dominate wolves.

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Domkrats

[Allen]

On 12/15/2020 at 12:07 PM, Mikel Monleón said:

I hope so too. I honestly wouldn't mind temporal storms if they felt like they belonged. Like what if the world wasn't a planet but a more metaphysical plane of existence. It could curve inward so in the distance you could see land curving towards the sky. If you travel further away from spawn there would be more temporal instability. Maybe energy doesn't come from the sun but through the temporal storms, so plant and animal life could be unique and bizarre looking and get drastically more extravagant the further you travel. Maybe plants glow in the dark?

Also, why are drifters hostile? and what do little sloth creatures have to do with bending and twisting space? 

I don't think the developers have built the world from the ground up with temporal storms in mind. Even if they do add more lore, unless they change everything, it will always feel like an afterthought to me. 

 

These are my personal thoughts, but considering what temporal storms do(reduce stability, spawn drifters), and how the game is being made with the lovecraftian mythos in mind, a temporal storm seems to be something like a sudden sharp decrease in temporal stability.

'Temporal' means 'relating to time or worldly things'. As a temporal storm doesn't seem to effect time, we can assume 'temporal' in temporal storm/temporal stability means 'worldly'. So when a temporal storm happens or when you're in low stability areas in general, the very world is becoming unstable. This fits the lovecraftian themes the game is said to be going for, and explains why drifters during temporal storms flicker. They're dimensionally unstable.

Considering the broken translocators in ruins use temporal gear, I think it's plausible that the current state of the world in vintage story is that some advanced civilization messed with some lovecraft horror dimension and got wiped out. Temporal storms happen because whatever said civilization did made the world unstable, causing crap to leak over from the horror dimension place causing instabilities. Drifters would then be things from said horror dimension, or maybe things that 'drift' between dimensions, that are finding their way into the world thanks to it being unstable. So temporal storms and drifters would be an alien 'intruder' to an otherwise natural world.

Or not. I don't know what the devs are thinking or what they're plans are any more than anyone else.

Anyways, my point is, not everything has to be 'natural thing that happens here and the world grew up/was shaped around/with it' for something to be a part of a story or lore. Lots of stories have some outside influence or other dimensional corruption that, depending on how far it's progressed, don't feel like they belong because that's the entire point. 

Of course we don't know what the devs are planning since the game, and especially the lore/fantasy stuff, are really early in development and the things are pretty bare bones, but I don't think calling it an afterthought because it's not fully fleshed out yet is a fair assessment.

That said, I don't like temporal storms very much because the screen wavy effect gives me motion sickness really easy. You also can't really protect yourself against the effects which kinda sucks.

[l33tmaan]

I had a great idea (to toot my own horn) inspired by the now-dead Terraria: Otherworld and Mikel's 'farland' idea. 

Basically, the farther you get from spawn, the more temporal instability leaks out onto the surface, which eventually causes worldgen to get all funky and messed up and spawn drifters and other horrible monsters in broad daylight during a 3-sun eclipse or something stupid like that. Naturally there's all sorts of goodies out here that are hard to find in a more stable location. But how do you get them? Simple! You have a totem or obelisk or whatever that creates a zone of temporal stability so you can break a path through the horrible lovecraftian fields 10000 blocks away from spawn to go get temporal gears easily.

I think it'll give the people who crave progression a little more something to do while tying the lovecraftian stuff into the actual gameplay so you can go fight it rather than being subject to it like you are now. 

[Mikel Monleón]

18 hours ago, Allen said:

Anyways, my point is, not everything has to be 'natural thing that happens here and the world grew up/was shaped around/with it' for something to be a part of a story or lore. Lots of stories have some outside influence or other dimensional corruption that, depending on how far it's progressed, don't feel like they belong because that's the entire point. 

True. Maybe you're right. Perhaps it's just my own personal preference that is making me bias, I really appreciate it when you can see the natural connections that point to some origin throughout the gameplay experience. 
Though even if the game is following some external dimensional influence sort of logic. I do feel like there is a lot more work to be done before temporal storms feel believable. I just hope that they're open to reworking what they've done. It seems very buggy and random. I am not getting any sense of lovecraft or horror from it at all. 

Edited December 17, 2020 by Mikel Monleón

[redram]

The lore parts of the game have frankly been barely touched upon.  The focus to this point has been mainly on getting the 'nuts and bolts' of survival, combat, crafting, and mechanical systems.  Temporal storms as they exist are just a simple shadow of what they're intended to be.   Not to mention all the other lore related things that aren't even in the game yet.  Remember that this game is still in early access, and even though to many it seems fleshed out enough to be an actual full game, it is in fact still very early.  It's a very, very small team, and we can't add things at the same speed as game studios that have million(s of) dollar budgets.  So things tend to get added in stages, often doing a first iteration to make sure a basic thing works, and then later there will be refining of the mechanics.  This is very apparent with armor, for instance.   The problem is, there's still just so many things to add, that the refining of existing content often gets pushed onto the back burner in favor of new content.  Such is life in boot strapped game development.

It also doesn't help the lore end when a poll for the focus of the next update puts lore in next-to-last place for community preference.

[l33tmaan]

Hey, people want mechanics over lore. Nothing wrong with that, just give us lore anyway. People probably won't mind if there are more tapestries and books and stuff in the homesteading update as long as the rest of the update has cool new stuff. 

[Mikel Monleón]

I understand that the game is still in development. I am curious to see what they will add in the future to make the lore feel more complete. However, my complaint was more about having the lore more integrated with the design of the game, which would mean reworking a lot of what they've already done, or changing their plans for the lore to fit more with what they've done. 

Edited December 18, 2020 by Mikel Monleón

[Stratagerm]

On 12/14/2020 at 6:54 AM, Mikel Monleón said:

Perhaps the periodic threat, or challenge to the game, could be having to compete with other NPC humans. Imagine if there were other tribes that could hunt you down, or even kingdoms that could pillage you.

I really don't want this. It should be a mod.

As it stands now, except for wolves and temporal storms you pretty much control if/when combat happens. It's already hard enough for new players to thrive in the early game without introducing tribes that on a RNG whim come and obliterate you, or whose village prevents access to a scarce resource.

[Mikel Monleón]

3 hours ago, Stratagerm said:

As it stands now, except for wolves and temporal storms you pretty much control if/when combat happens. It's already hard enough for new players to thrive in the early game without introducing tribes that on a RNG whim come and obliterate you, or whose village prevents access to a scarce resource

Temporal storms can come and obliterate you just as easily, don't see how it would be any different. Why would a village prevent access to a scarce resource? Are you assuming that a village would be hostile? If it is, why not go somewhere else?

[Watch-The-Skies]

As stated above the game is still early in development and undoubtedly the temporal storm and hostile enemies will be improved upon to feel more like a natural story event. As for what they plan on adding in order to flesh out the lore and world, the roadmap lists several features such as villages, procedural dungeons, an intro that will likely provide some starting info about the world to the player and possibly quests. But before that, they need to work on core features that more advanced features will need. By all means it's quite likely that villagers will eventually use the game's physical crafting system for things like pottery and smithing, aka you'll be able to see them working on a project just like how a player does. But before that, they'd need to develop more of the game's crafting system. Take for example the planned features of the homesteading update. Alcohol, fruit trees, animal leashes and more crops/animals are things that would be important for a village and economy.

It's just that rn the team is very small and has limited time and resources so they have to prioritize what to work on. Working on the core gameplay provides the building blocks for advanced features and is what will draw in new players, and if the game catches on then they could then hire more people to assist with the game's development. Just a matter of patience.

Edited December 22, 2020 by Watch-The-Skies
grammar

[caffeine9999]

Maybe an unpopular opinion, but I'm not sure I even want villages at all. I really enjoy that bittersweet atmosphere of solitude, of being lost in a big and old world, and more NPCs would break it.