Really questionable changes in 1.22 pre1

[Maelstrom]

10 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

GASP you mean.... people would just lie on the internet???

NonononoNo.   This could have been a lie directly to my face of all things!    The story was delivered in 1999 before the interwebs were much more than a curiousity.

[Thorfinn]

9 hours ago, Urmanin said:

You want combat to be realistic?

No.

9 hours ago, Urmanin said:

Hunting in VS is something nobody enjoys because quite frankly trying to chase animals that never tire and are also faster than you gets old extremely fast to put it mildly.

Hunting s just different now. A couple versions ago, they wouldn't even run if you put a spear or arrow into them at distance. That was boring as heck, and even someone who wanted "realism" should agree this is an improvement.

9 hours ago, Urmanin said:

But as people have known for a while Tyron hates ranged so spears got nerfed.

I prefer the alternative explanation -- hunting was so trivial that there was no good reason to bother with domesticating livestock. Fishing was also too simple -- a tiny pond would spawn more than enough fish to keep protein pegged.

 

10 hours ago, Urmanin said:

Farming now requires far larger fields.

With modern high-yield crops, it takes about a half acre to raise a year's food. That's about 2,000 blocks. Whither realism?

9 hours ago, MKMoose said:

I know, but you did say that hunting is "maybe even too easy"

Not easy in contrast to hard, but easy as in trivial. My bad on word choice.

[LadyWYT]

49 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Prior to this update, the best spear you could carry was again, bronze which allowed for later weapon tiers (iron and steel) to eclipse it in damage with the Falx and/or blackguard blade for melee, and the bow and arrow for ranged.

One important thing I do want to note here is that spears in previous versions can also be thrown much faster than the current 1.22-pre. In 1.22-pre, the action of throwing a spear is a much more deliberate choice, and it seems a lot more important to make sure that the shot has had time to properly charge so that it actually goes where you throw it/has enough power to actually damage(that is, I'm not sure that I missed the target as much as the shot might not have had enough power behind it).

 

29 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I prefer the alternative explanation -- hunting was so trivial that there was no good reason to bother with domesticating livestock. Fishing was also too simple -- a tiny pond would spawn more than enough fish to keep protein pegged.

Given my above comment, I would say it's probably not just hunting. The fast rate of fire for spears in previous versions makes it pretty easy to just chain the shots together and kite enemies around. With the longer wind-up time in 1.22-pre, spears still remain pretty strong for hunting, but when it comes to combat in general they're more of the following: 

59 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

The spear is a weird weapon because it doubles as both a melee and ranged weapon that you can't stack in your inventory.

That is, it's a good general purpose weapon for puttering around on the surface, poking at targets from a safer range, or softening a target up a bit before finishing it off in melee. But it's not so good that it's going to be the default weapon of choice for every single class in most every circumstance. While I do think the current damage is fine, I also think it wouldn't hurt to bump the base damage up just a little, though the base damage shouldn't be as strong as before unless the player puts in the effort to temper and quench the spearpoint.

[Thorfinn]

1 hour ago, Urmanin said:

Quite frankly the game isn't as solid as you claim because the whole chapter 2 of the story is some of the absolute worst I have seen videogames have to offer.

I hated that chapter, as well. I don't intend to redo it just for completionist sake. Not until Chap 3 drops anyway.

But this ties into my next comment.

2 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Tyron and Saraty are the original creators, and building the game they want to play themselves.

Right. And this is what gives me an inferiority complex and drives me to improve. They and the whole team are good enough that they thought the original shivers and bowtorn were balanced. That the time to apply bandages and wait for healing was fine for the RA. I can't even imagine how good they are at dodging, or, frankly, any relevant game skill.

[LadyWYT]

1 hour ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

You, uh... got a quote there buddy? A linky link? Something other than "their words not mine"

You didn't aim the question at me but I did find this in the FAQ: https://www.vintagestory.at/faq.html/

Quote

Why did you add Feature X instead of Y? Feature Z is annoying, why don't you remove it? Why is my Feedback not being listened to?
We are serving a very large player base, each with their own unique vision of how the game should be like. Particularly with survival sandbox games, the vision of players can vary greatly. This is why we offer immense customization options right from within the game as well as invested a lot of time&effort into making the game moddable for those cases where we cannot offer easy customization. Many of the changes we do inevitably will please one portion of our players and displease another portion. There is also our own strong vision of how the game should be and play like - if we were to ignore that, we would very quickly lose motivation to continue developing. Some changes might only bring benefits, but only addresses a very niche case - so its always a trade off on the amount of work being put into versus the amount of gain a change brings. Our development time is a finite resource that we have to carefully allocate to achieve the most in the least amount of time. In short, it is not possible for us to accomodate everyone's wishes. That being said we do try our best to listen to the needs and wishes of our community!

 

Edited February 11 by LadyWYT

[Urmanin]

12 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

One important thing I do want to note here is that spears in previous versions can also be thrown much faster than the current 1.22-pre. In 1.22-pre, the action of throwing a spear is a much more deliberate choice, and it seems a lot more important to make sure that the shot has had time to properly charge so that it actually goes where you throw it/has enough power to actually damage(that is, I'm not sure that I missed the target as much as the shot might not have had enough power behind it).

 

Given my above comment, I would say it's probably not just hunting. The fast rate of fire for spears in previous versions makes it pretty easy to just chain the shots together and kite enemies around. With the longer wind-up time in 1.22-pre, spears still remain pretty strong for hunting, but when it comes to combat in general they're more of the following: 

That is, it's a good general purpose weapon for puttering around on the surface, poking at targets from a safer range, or softening a target up a bit before finishing it off in melee. But it's not so good that it's going to be the default weapon of choice for every single class in most every circumstance. While I do think the current damage is fine, I also think it wouldn't hurt to bump the base damage up just a little, though the base damage shouldn't be as strong as before unless the player puts in the effort to temper and quench the spearpoint.

We get it, Tyron wants everyone to use his ugly oc donut steel sword named after his precious self insert oc. He was just mad people threw spears at his precious eidolon to turn it into an eidogon, because as a boss it's boring and quite frankly nobody cared for it of the about 3 times i'ver seen it done with different people. It's also why the second boss is as it  is - it exists just to waste your ammo, and makes it so you can't throw spears at it. As a weapon the falx makes no sense. At no point should it magically be more effective at fighting anything than a spear, the weapon of choice of every footman in history. Looking at it realistically it offers absolutely zero benefit over just using any old normal sword. Sure, it SAYS it's somehow, magically better at fighting drifters, when looking at it it would be worse than any straight-edged blade at cutting something in an actual fight. It'll just get caught on your enemy, or the metal jutting out of them when slashing. Or do you think there exist enemies which let you stand still and use the falx on them like a hand saw? That's what the design seems to imply. It's like he looked at a khopesh and thought to himself "how can I make it lamer". I refuse to use falxes on principle just to spite Tyron at this point. Thankfully there's no shortage of alternatives even in the base game (spears, bows and the shortsword).
Again, the excuse of "oh but you have better spears now" holds no water because the new "better" spears are now the same as old "worse" spears, meaning you have to put in more resources and effort to get the same, or worse, results. All because the devs are mad at people doing what every caveman learned to do.

[LadyWYT]

3 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I hated that chapter, as well. I don't intend to redo it just for completionist sake. Not until Chap 3 drops anyway.

I like Chapter 2 and it's much improved over what it first was. I do agree though that parkour isn't for everyone. It would have been nice to have a way to skip the tougher parkour, in return for spending a fair amount of time and resources to do so. That would also give some extra replay value to the location.

 

6 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Right. And this is what gives me an inferiority complex and drives me to improve. They and the whole team are good enough that they thought the original shivers and bowtorn were balanced. That the time to apply bandages and wait for healing was fine for the RA. I can't even imagine how good they are at dodging, or, frankly, any relevant game skill.

Maybe. Or they could be dying a lot and just prefer a really tough game.  My guess is that based on how Standard is balanced, they're aiming for something tough, but fair. Exploration is a bit too easy for realistic survival, while Wilderness Survival is harder than what most players will probably enjoy.

[Urmanin]

2 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

You didn't aim the question at me but I did find this in the FAQ: https://www.vintagestory.at/faq.html/

 

Their development time is a finite resource which is why they're spending it making a second game instead of having all hands on deck for actually finishing vs first. It's a very poor excuse, and Tyron and co are not the first by far to use it. It ends the same way every time too, and I am not willing to bet VS will be an exception in the long run.
The magic "creator vision" just looks extremely unfocused with no clear priorities. I'll trust someone like the devs of valheim or starsector to deliver on a straight vision, bit from the looks of things Tyron and co have no clear vision anymore, they just add whatever is cool to them in the moment regardless of prior commitments or promises anymore.
The biggest case of that recently was warframe and guess what, the game only started getting better when the "people with the vision" completely left warframe development for the second game (which tyron and co are also doing) and were replaced.
VS is not some magic unique case in game development. Videogames have been actively made since the 80s and in that time I have seen plenty of examples of "creators with vision" who made a good foundation but then lost track and ended up just making a mess.

[Urmanin]

4 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I like Chapter 2 and it's much improved over what it first was. I do agree though that parkour isn't for everyone. It would have been nice to have a way to skip the tougher parkour, in return for spending a fair amount of time and resources to do so. That would also give some extra replay value to the location.

 

Maybe. Or they could be dying a lot and just prefer a really tough game.  My guess is that based on how Standard is balanced, they're aiming for something tough, but fair. Exploration is a bit too easy for realistic survival, while Wilderness Survival is harder than what most players will probably enjoy.

It's not just the parkour, it's also the boss. They just looked at the ender dragon, who NOBODY likes actually fighting, and thought "how can we make this 5 times more annoying". And your payoff is literally nothing. Not to mention hours of holding W in empty terrain to get there. All of chapter 2 needs to be scrapped again and redone. It is straight up awful.

Edited February 11 by Urmanin

[LadyWYT]

3 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

It's not just the parkour, it's also the boss. They just looked at the ender dragon, who NOBODY likes actually fighting, and thought "how can we make this 5 times more annoying".

The fights are similar, however, the Ender Dragon involves lingering damage effects, can heal itself as long as crystals are remaining, and isn't likely to kill the player via fall damage unless the player happens to get knocked of a ladder/nerdpole.

The second VS boss is more dangerous since it's more likely to knock the player off the tower. It can fire shots at the player, which are a hazard, but that hazard can be fired back at the boss, meaning the player doesn't have to worry about ammunition. The player can also dodge every attack from the boss and thus take no damage at all, thanks to the timeswitch mechanic for that area. The boss fight has also been retuned so that the boss circles the tower more consistently(which makes it easier for the player to shoot), as well as have more time in between each attack cycle so that the player has more time to fire shots and dodge the incoming attacks. In the earlier stages of 1.20's development, the boss had a much more hectic flight pattern, and much less time between each attack, which left players scrambling for cover while trying to fire shots at the same time--really not a good combination. It was also possible to cheese the fight by hiding in the stairwell leading to the tower roof, which let players fire from cover or even hit the boss in melee without getting knocked off the roof.

10 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

Not to mention hours of holding W in empty terrain to get there.

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/Mount#Steering

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/Bridle/draft

Using the curb bit will let players tap the W key to start moving forward. There's no need to hold down the button for traveling, provided the appropriate bridle is being used.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

14 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

empty terrain

spoken like someone who doesn't carry a propick with them at all times. That empty terrain could be a literal gold mine. You never know what you might find out there. //media.invisioncic.com/r268468/emoticons/wink.png 

24 minutes ago, Urmanin said:

It's also why the second boss is as it  is - it exists just to waste your ammo, and makes it so you can't throw spears at it.

The 2nd boss literally gives you ammo and spears to chuck back at it. It's one of my favorite features of that fight. I think the last time I fought it I ended up with more ammo in my inventory than I started with so I'm not really sure what you're on about. The fight seems fine to me.. if anything it's a little too weak, but it IS only the 2nd chapter boss, so I can't fault the devs too much for making it so.

6 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

was also possible to cheese the fight by hiding in the stairwell leading to the tower roof, which let players fire from cover or even hit the boss in melee without getting knocked off the roof.

I hated that they changed that, but I also understand why they did it. There's a reason that drifters throw rocks.

7 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/Mount#Steering

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/Bridle/draft

Using the curb bit will let players tap the W key to start moving forward. There's no need to hold down the button for traveling, provided the appropriate bridle is being used.

you know I was going to mention this but it's also easily found just by taking 5 minutes to read the wiki entries on the elk and other related articles.

[Urmanin]

30 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

The fights are similar, however, the Ender Dragon involves lingering damage effects, can heal itself as long as crystals are remaining, and isn't likely to kill the player via fall damage unless the player happens to get knocked of a ladder/nerdpole.

The second VS boss is more dangerous since it's more likely to knock the player off the tower. It can fire shots at the player, which are a hazard, but that hazard can be fired back at the boss, meaning the player doesn't have to worry about ammunition. The player can also dodge every attack from the boss and thus take no damage at all, thanks to the timeswitch mechanic for that area. The boss fight has also been retuned so that the boss circles the tower more consistently(which makes it easier for the player to shoot), as well as have more time in between each attack cycle so that the player has more time to fire shots and dodge the incoming attacks. In the earlier stages of 1.20's development, the boss had a much more hectic flight pattern, and much less time between each attack, which left players scrambling for cover while trying to fire shots at the same time--really not a good combination. It was also possible to cheese the fight by hiding in the stairwell leading to the tower roof, which let players fire from cover or even hit the boss in melee without getting knocked off the roof.

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/Mount#Steering

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/Bridle/draft

Using the curb bit will let players tap the W key to start moving forward. There's no need to hold down the button for traveling, provided the appropriate bridle is being used.

You just indirectly confirmed that the journey is that long just to justify the elk. And the point of my statement isn't that I have to hold W - it's that it's mind-numbingly long, absolutely pointless and completely boring.

Everyone knows about the elk, and everyone outside your little precious echochamber abhors chapter 2. So far out of every entirely separate group I have played with 100% of the reactions to chapter 2 were "I am never playing with lore content again". You can defend it all you want, but there are always people like you who defend objectively bad decisions and practices in gaming. This leads to the game's "official" communities becoming a smaller and smaller chamber of nothing but positivity as the project slowly shrivels up and dies.

In the end all arguments defending bad changes to the game boil down to "but I liked it" (you are in the absolute minority), more tedium = more hard and good, and mods will fix it. It's a death knell for the long term prospects of the game. It has happened before dozens if not hundreds of times, and this time will be no different. The devs very badly need to take a step back and ask the important question of "what does this change accomplish? what does it mean for actual gameplay and fun?" and to put the second game on the backburner until VS is done.

I will for the last time reiterate - tedium and realism for their own sake is just the game insisting upon itself. The game flow gets bogged down with pointless chores and tasks become longer and more complicated with zero payoff. If you like games like the germans' favorite farming simulators, this is for you. If you're a normal human being, more tedium with zero payoff is extremely off-putting. Believe me, outside of here the absolute majority of people hate pointless tedium and the lore content as it is in the game right now. The point of games is to be fun, and if it's not fun, why bother.

Edited February 11 by Urmanin

[LadyWYT]

17 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

you know I was going to mention this but it's also easily found just by taking 5 minutes to read the wiki entries on the elk and other related articles.

Another thing I forgot to mention--the devs also gave players the ability to tune the distance of story locations themselves in the World Generation tab at world creation. The distances can be made much longer or much shorter than default. Likewise, the default distances themselves have been adjusted for a couple of the Chapter 2 locations. 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

24 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Another thing I forgot to mention--the devs also gave players the ability to tune the distance of story locations themselves in the World Generation tab at world creation. The distances can be made much longer or much shorter than default. Likewise, the default distances themselves have been adjusted for a couple of the Chapter 2 locations. 

Oh yeah. that kind of yanks the rug out from under all the "BuT tHe DiStAnCe iS tO jUsTiFy ThE eLK!" arguments since you can just make everything as close or as far as you want.  brb making a world where the RA is at least 20000 blocks away so that it's an actual journey to get there.

[LadyWYT]

4 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Oh yeah. that kind of yanks the rug out from under all the "BuT tHe DiStAnCe iS tO jUsTiFy ThE eLK!" arguments since you can just make everything as close or as far as you want.

Not only that, but the player can easily cover the distance on foot in roughly the same amount of time as the elk(a couple of days). It'll just be more expensive due to the food cost from sprinting, as well as less convenient since there will be no elk to carry supplies or auto-climb difficult terrain, and no curb bit to take advantage of for easy travel.

[williams_482]

1 hour ago, Urmanin said:

We get it, Tyron wants everyone to use his ugly oc donut steel sword named after his precious self insert oc. He was just mad people threw spears at his precious eidolon to turn it into an eidogon, because as a boss it's boring and quite frankly nobody cared for it of the about 3 times i'ver seen it done with different people. It's also why the second boss is as it  is - it exists just to waste your ammo, and makes it so you can't throw spears at it. As a weapon the falx makes no sense. At no point should it magically be more effective at fighting anything than a spear, the weapon of choice of every footman in history. Looking at it realistically it offers absolutely zero benefit over just using any old normal sword. Sure, it SAYS it's somehow, magically better at fighting drifters, when looking at it it would be worse than any straight-edged blade at cutting something in an actual fight. It'll just get caught on your enemy, or the metal jutting out of them when slashing. Or do you think there exist enemies which let you stand still and use the falx on them like a hand saw? That's what the design seems to imply. It's like he looked at a khopesh and thought to himself "how can I make it lamer". I refuse to use falxes on principle just to spite Tyron at this point. Thankfully there's no shortage of alternatives even in the base game (spears, bows and the shortsword).
Again, the excuse of "oh but you have better spears now" holds no water because the new "better" spears are now the same as old "worse" spears, meaning you have to put in more resources and effort to get the same, or worse, results. All because the devs are mad at people doing what every caveman learned to do.

The falx is a real historical weapon, although a niche one.

To summarize the wikipedia link, it was used by the Thracians and Dacians who fought against Roman emperor Trajan, and is portrayed on his famous triumphal column. In practice the falx seems to be a hybrid between a sword and an axe, a two-handed chopping weapon which was very effective against shields and armor alike. Modern tests have confirmed that the falx was capable of piercing roman armor, and the Romans actually added unusual makeshift reinforcement to their helmets for that campaign, theorized to be a direct response to the falx. 

Of course this weapon was not without problems, as it was somewhat clumsy to use and could leave it's wielder vulnerable. This likely explains why it never caught on more broadly (although I should note that there is a definite similarity in form and function between the forward curving spike of the falx and the business end of a late medieval warhammer, designed specifically for punching through plate armor. These weapons surely didn't share a design lineage, but they had a very similar purpose) and why seemingly a minority of Thracian and Dacian soldiers actually used it. Yet the falx was created and used by an actual historical people, it was effective enough that opponents developed specific countermeasures to it, and the specific way it was effective (splitting shields and punching through armor, delivering large gashing wounds) does make it a logical choice as the go-to weapon against creatures with lots of natural armor who don't seem to have a lot of vulnerable bits. 

As an aside, it's worth a mention that the Romans were unusual among armies in the ancient world because they marginalized and ultimately eschewed spears or pikes as melee weapons. For most of (western) Roman history, 80%-100% of the heavy infantry in a roman legion would fight with two heavy javelins (Pilla) and a short sword. Only the last of the three lines of roman infantry (the Triarii, who had half as many men as the Hastati and Princeps ahead of them) retained the Hasta (Rome's version of the classic Mediterranean infantry spear) through the republican period, and even they switched over to using Pilla in the imperial period. I've seen it argued that the relatively high-armor environment of ancient Italy is the reason why Rome moved away from spears as their primary infantry weapon, but to my knowledge that hasn't been proven. All of which is a roundabout way of saying: spears were probably the most popular weapons in the history of world, certainly the western world, prior to the advent of gunpowder, but they were not universal across successful armies. Arguably the most successful premodern military system in the history of the world barely used them at all. 

As I have argued before, the game doesn't currently do a great job making the falx specifically good at dealing with rotbeasts and mechanicals the way the lore describes and the actual properties of the weapon would suggest. A better balance would be to bring spears and falxes to near parity in raw damage, with the spear keeping the advantage of reach and throwability, and the falx recieving some actual armor piercing ability. Monsters (and not animals) should in turn get some damage resistance for the falx to punch through. The final effect would be that the spear is the weapon of choice against animals and unarmored humanoids, in keeping with it's historical prominence, while the falx's shield splitting, helmet piercing attributes can give it a significant edge against armored humans and metal-infused rotbeasts. 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

I wanted to just yell "NERD" but then I got 3 pages deep into your first link and that hard stare into the mirror never looked so judgemental... 

and now I know what I'll be reading tonight....

[ijkdenem]

i am so damn happy they finally added these waterwheels!!!! to be fair i thought we were gonna need to do a water bucket waterfall to make them spin or just build then under a waterfall to get it to work.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

14 hours ago, Urmanin said:

he's the one who made the devastation tower (and the journey to it), the literal worst, anti-fun part of any game I have seen in over 25 years.

So by that logic, if they were to fix it to your specific liking, and someone else came along and said it was the literal worst, anti-fun part of any game they had ever seen in over 25 years, then if the devs fixed the tower to their liking instead, would it be correct to say that the devs made the correct action in "fixing" the tower to fit the other person's vision for that part of the story? Am I reading that correctly? Because that's literally what they did, the other person was Tyron himself, and yet here you are complaining about it.

[Vexxvididu]

I like the falx just fine.... but in my view it needs to hit harder (especially against rot beasts and especially the steel versions) to justify the loss of range from the spear.

I do like the look of the falx.  I get why some don't though...

[CastIronFabric]

17 hours ago, ijkdenem said:

i am so damn happy they finally added these waterwheels!!!! to be fair i thought we were gonna need to do a water bucket waterfall to make them spin or just build then under a waterfall to get it to work.

they added a new water type that is flowing water and it can not be created by players without creative, so its in place only. This means, one can not build a waterwheel anywhere they want. I am not a fan of that. I would like to be able to create a rive, add flowing water and put a waterwheel where ever I want. 

Edited February 12 by CastIronFabric

[CastIronFabric]

14 minutes ago, RogueVali said:

Feel that's part of the issues. Echochamber. Hah. Not enough people are willing or can be bothered to voice actual critique and complaints, due to a select few pricks just gaslighting entire community into thinking that everything devs do is sacred, their vision, and god forbid you voice some concerns about the product you paid for.

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.

There is nothing wrong with Vintage Story.

no its not that, there is a truck ton of criticism as well as praise to the point where any change is considered balsamy. Both exists and often in direct confrontation. 

What happens is people (all people, including you and including me) get defensive when presented with disagreements to an assertion. Its not uncommon for logic and reason to go quickly sideways at that point because egos are then involved. In addition and to complicate matters we seem to have an instict to look for reasons to disagree (just like this post no?). why? I do not know

 

Edited February 12 by CastIronFabric

[CastIronFabric]

11 minutes ago, RogueVali said:

-----

I removed the comment just to save space.

Lets just back up a bit (I think I went to far in my reply) and get to basics

claim:

Quote

Not enough people are willing or can be bothered to voice actual critique and complaints,

my response:

This is objectively easy to proove is false just by looking at this thread alone which is covered with mostly complaints about the update.

In fact, even the very title of this thread is a complaint about the update

Edited February 13 by CastIronFabric

[CastIronFabric]

Just now, RogueVali said:

And u can see it just as easily dismissed by the echo chamber of like 4 voices. Each thousands of comments on their accs, curious why that is. I can only hope at least some of the criticisim will get acknowledged by the devs. Them acknowledging spear nerf was just ridiculous in its current, presented form is a step in the right direction, but the amount of cope and dismissal from the SAME PEOPLE telling devs come ooon it was fiiiiiine is just astonishing. Baffling even.

in fact, even the title of this entire thread is a complaint about this update.

your assessment that people do not complain and that this thread is an echo chamber of approval is objectively simply flat out false.

 

[CastIronFabric]

1 minute ago, RogueVali said:

U fail to comprehend what I'm trying to convey then. I'm not saying people don't complain, or that this thread is an echo chamber. I'm saying that there exists an echo chamber within the thread, and forums at large, trying to smother threads like these.

ok I am not going to engage much with 'the thread is not an echo chamber but there is an echo chamber' that is just going to lead to problems so I am pulling my ripcord after this reply.

The MAJORITY of comments on this thread by a fairly large margin are complaints.

that is all, thank you