A General Discussion on the State of the Forums

[Bruno Willis]

I've never used online forums before this, but I've heard rumors so I expected a level of conflict that's just never come up here. I felt really welcomed, and while I've witnessed a few arguments which got silly, I've always felt I could just post elsewhere. Things like the "humorous stories" thread help keep the forums feeling welcoming and cheerful.

For the third pole I put "other", because I think arguments do occasionally devolve and get less than respectful still stay contained to V.S. things, and get personal only about people's positions on V.S., not on any outside life things. 

Most of the time, arguments seem to be between people who really care about V.S. and want it to be better, but have different ideas about what would improve the game. As long as we keep that in mind, that when people get passionate, it's cause they both really want V.S. to be better, then hopefully we can be understanding?

Whenever something gets a bit intense, I always remember that there are quiet people who are interested in some of the less contentious aspects, and you can pull those things out and start a new, less contentious thread focused on one very specific thing. It seems like we get the most arguments when people are talking about big, overarching concepts and systems. Small, specific ideas seem to draw in people who are interested in workshopping the idea rather than criticizing.

[EnbyKaiju]

Not long ago I posted about how much I appreciated this space as a welcoming & friendly environment, especially compared to the overcrowded & fast-paced nature of the discord server, a few weeks or so ago I would have replied yes to all of those.

In seeing how things have fallen so sharply lately, with constant disagreements bordering on personal attacks, I've quickly moved to a no on all fronts.

There are people here who genuinely make this space special & joyful to be around (looking at you, @LadyWYT for one), but others who seem to take it on themselves to go to the bathroom on discussions & ruin it for everyone out of personal pride in being right.

That needs cleaning up, there's practically zero moderation going on, and it feels like it's breeding toxicity. There needs to be a point where discussions are called to a close, and heated arguments deescalated instead of constantly ramped up. I'm not seeing that happen (I've been a community manager & mod in spaces for years, I know what to look out for)

I hope things get back to where they were. Some friendly disagreement is always good for working out ways forward, but this is unsustainably bad at times. Because I honestly don't feel welcome or safe around some of the folks here that are pushing their ego above the feelings of other people.

I want to be here, but it's hard not to feel the need to pull away.

Edited Wednesday at 10:01 PM by EnbyKaiju

[Teh Pizza Lady]

1 hour ago, EnbyKaiju said:

Not long ago I posted about how much I appreciated this space as a welcoming & friendly environment, especially compared to the overcrowded & fast-paced nature of the discord server, a few weeks or so ago I would have replied yes to all of those.

In seeing how things have fallen so sharply lately, with constant disagreements bordering on personal attacks, I've quickly moved to a no on all fronts.

There are people here who genuinely make this space special & joyful to be around (looking at you, @LadyWYT for one), but others who seem to take it on themselves to go to the bathroom on discussions & ruin it for everyone out of personal pride in being right.

That needs cleaning up, there's practically zero moderation going on, and it feels like it's breeding toxicity. There needs to be a point where discussions are called to a close, and heated arguments deescalated instead of constantly ramped up. I'm not seeing that happen (I've been a community manager & mod in spaces for years, I know what to look out for)

I hope things get back to where they were. Some friendly disagreement is always good for working out ways forward, but this is unsustainably bad at times. Because I honestly don't feel welcome or safe around some of the folks here that are pushing their ego above the feelings of other people.

I want to be here, but it's hard not to feel the need to pull away.

Yeah that can be rough, especially when someone's behavior on the forums is consistently draining, even when they're not technically breaking the rules. It's not always that moderation isn't happening at all. Sometimes it's just that the person's actions were toeing the line instead of crossing it. The forum rules are designed to allow disagreements within discussions, even heated ones as long as they don't break the rules.

I can't enforce anything myself. I'm not making this thread on behalf of Anego. But one thing that the moderators remind me of from time to time is that if you find a particular user rather troublesome, then just add them to your block list. They reminded me of it quite recently, actually. So while it won't fix the bigger issue, it can give you some breathing room so you can still enjoy the community without the constant noise of people shouting you or others down. I hope you start feeling more like you belong here, soon.

[EnbyKaiju]

3 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

It's not always that moderation isn't happening at all. Sometimes it's just that the person's actions were toeing the line instead of crossing it.

Yeah, I've had to deal with similar stuff in servers I've helped moderate. In the end you need to impose a "if your behaviour is repeatedly disruptive you will be removed" kind of rule because there are people who know exactly how far they can go without technically breaking a rule and it's just a drain on everyone. In the end every shared space needs to built around community, and there are those who really don't behave like community members.

5 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

But one thing that the moderators remind me of from time to time is that if you find a particular user rather troublesome, then just add them to your block list.

Yeah that's a good one, I forgot forums allow you to block, I should do that if just to give myself a little breathing room.

I'm going to be very open for a moment, I deal with a lot of mental health issues, mostly depression and anxiety, that prevent me from interacting much in the outside world. So I seek out spaces like this as a refuge where I can feel safe and talk about things I love (especially this game which has literally kept me going the last few years). That's what this place felt like coming in, considering the often negative atmosphere in the discord server, so I feel it pretty hard when the tone shifts. That's a me thing though, so I accept that my sensetivity is tuned up higher than others might be. Would just be nice if more folks had a little empathy & understanding & didn't just go straight in for the attack (even if it does skirt the lines of being an outright attack.

You do a good job, Pizza Lady. You're one of the top folks around here and I appreciate what you do.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

21 minutes ago, EnbyKaiju said:

Yeah that's a good one, I forgot forums allow you to block, I should do that if just to give myself a little breathing room.

The only issue is that on this forum you have to block them from your profile, but other than that it's a pretty painless process.

[LadyWYT]

20 minutes ago, EnbyKaiju said:

Yeah that's a good one, I forgot forums allow you to block, I should do that if just to give myself a little breathing room.

Speaking from experience, but it really does help. I don't like to block users unless I absolutely have to, since I like seeing multiple different views and whatnot, but sometimes it's the best option for the long-term. 

 

Just now, Teh Pizza Lady said:

The only issue is that on this forum you have to block them from your profile, but other than that it's a pretty painless process.

Yeah, having the Ignore feature be easier to use would probably help smooth some things out. I know that user signatures can be hidden by simply clicking on them and choosing "Ignore", but to ignore the user fully you have to go to your profile and manually add their name to the list. I wouldn't be surprised if the feature gets overlooked by many for that reason.

[Zane Mordien]

1 hour ago, EnbyKaiju said:

In seeing how things have fallen so sharply lately, with constant disagreements bordering on personal attacks, I've quickly moved to a no on all fronts.

There are people here who genuinely make this space special & joyful to be around (looking at you, @LadyWYT for one), but others who seem to take it on themselves to go to the bathroom on discussions & ruin it for everyone out of personal pride in being right.

I don't see it like you do. There are people who get stuck on their thing and you just have to not engage them after they state their opinion. There have been one or two that have gone a little far and they got warned. As far as forums go that I've been a part of in my time, this one is no where near what I would consider toxic. 

[idiomcritter]

my only (minor) issue with the forums has much to do with using the right search term to actually find an already existing solution.  

perhaps ai could help (me)...  

[EnbyKaiju]

Yeah, I've just added the people who really don't know when to stop to my ignore list (wish you could just add them directly from the thread itself). From a moderation perspective it's not the best option, but if I don't see it they aren't my issue any more. I'm not a mod here, haha. Leave it up to people with more emotional bandwidth to try to deescalate.

And yeah, it's far from the worst here, but the constant doubling down can be utterly exhausting. Anyway, gonna move on. Think I'll stick to the build section for the time being. I'd rather see people doing cool & creative stuff than constantly complaining that things aren't perfect in their eyes.

Edited yesterday at 12:14 AM by EnbyKaiju

[Rick Howd]

I haven't been active in the forums or discord for this game prior to this because I'm frankly burned out (it's easier to avoid than interact). That being said, I saw this post and it called to my 'dying embers' if you will.

This is a topic that effects every forum or community space at sometime or another, I've participated in BBS's, CompuServe, IRC, a S*****D of forums, Discord and a few others venues (including letters to the editor, physical bulletin boards and even graffiti) and for 20+ years I've supported a particular software for our business. Sometimes as the host, a moderator or just a user.

I think a psychologist could offer a lot more insight to the issues that are being discussed here but I'll give it a shot from my almost 60 years.

1. People love what they love, when it changes, they have to reevaluate what it means to them and if it's a positive or negative impact. They will respond in a number of ways too lengthy to discuss here, but if you're familiar with CVI or other character responsive attributes studies, it really starts to make sense.

2. It's too easy to see a dissenting opinion as a opposition or even an attack on your own beliefs or ideals. Ie. Archers vs Melee vs Mages vs Crafters. (that might be from other games but you get the picture I hope)

3. If you've had a bad day at school, work or at home (finances, spouse, kids) and you join what was fun yesterday, a typo (yours or someone else's), a low battery on your mouse or crappy music can put you into an adversarial mode. The next person that pulls a straw from your camels back is going to get bitten. You might not even intend to bite that hard, but a few misspoken/typed words can cause serious damage.

4. Regional issues. If someone is dealing with 6 ft of snow, 6 years of drought or 6 weeks/years of war they will be on edge. 

5. Now the hard ones: Politics, race, religion, gender, sexual identity/preference, even slang (I have been called Honky, you get the picture). I do have a hard stance here and it only belongs in places where you specifically opt into the conversation.

So now should do we work with conflict? 

The first way should be direct, a DM or email, whatever, that just says: "This post might be offensive to some people, aliens from mars, the Devs, common folk" Tell people how to give more constructive criticism, rather than hearing "You nerfed me completely, your game sucks now!" Ask them why is fishing so important to you, oh you're pescatarian and you don't want to kill mammals or you're vegetarian and you don't want to kill anything so the protein crop nerf is really going to be a problem.

Truly understanding the beef (complaint) is key to resolution. Suggesting a balance is key to a moderator role. I've worked individually with what I call 'problem children' though they often are not children at all. I discuss the problem and the need and find a happy medium. Sometimes I agree to a point and I advocate for programming changes, other times I offer a work around or in the case of VS a mod would be appropriate.

I read almost every post on this thread before I wrote this reply and I saw some great feedback/responses that genuinely reflect the community that I expect/respect. Not just here, but what I would like to see everywhere on the internet, I'm not so naive to expect it but I'm happy to see it here and hope that we can continue.

Nom / Rick Howd

 

[CastIronFabric]

11 hours ago, Rick Howd said:

I haven't been active in the forums or discord for this game prior to this because I'm frankly burned out (it's easier to avoid than interact). That being said, I saw this post and it called to my 'dying embers' if you will.

This is a topic that effects every forum or community space at sometime or another, I've participated in BBS's, CompuServe, IRC, a S*****D of forums, Discord and a few others venues (including letters to the editor, physical bulletin boards and even graffiti) and for 20+ years I've supported a particular software for our business. Sometimes as the host, a moderator or just a user.

I think a psychologist could offer a lot more insight to the issues that are being discussed here but I'll give it a shot from my almost 60 years.

1. People love what they love, when it changes, they have to reevaluate what it means to them and if it's a positive or negative impact. They will respond in a number of ways too lengthy to discuss here, but if you're familiar with CVI or other character responsive attributes studies, it really starts to make sense.

2. It's too easy to see a dissenting opinion as a opposition or even an attack on your own beliefs or ideals. Ie. Archers vs Melee vs Mages vs Crafters. (that might be from other games but you get the picture I hope)

3. If you've had a bad day at school, work or at home (finances, spouse, kids) and you join what was fun yesterday, a typo (yours or someone else's), a low battery on your mouse or crappy music can put you into an adversarial mode. The next person that pulls a straw from your camels back is going to get bitten. You might not even intend to bite that hard, but a few misspoken/typed words can cause serious damage.

4. Regional issues. If someone is dealing with 6 ft of snow, 6 years of drought or 6 weeks/years of war they will be on edge. 

5. Now the hard ones: Politics, race, religion, gender, sexual identity/preference, even slang (I have been called Honky, you get the picture). I do have a hard stance here and it only belongs in places where you specifically opt into the conversation.

So now should do we work with conflict? 

The first way should be direct, a DM or email, whatever, that just says: "This post might be offensive to some people, aliens from mars, the Devs, common folk" Tell people how to give more constructive criticism, rather than hearing "You nerfed me completely, your game sucks now!" Ask them why is fishing so important to you, oh you're pescatarian and you don't want to kill mammals or you're vegetarian and you don't want to kill anything so the protein crop nerf is really going to be a problem.

Truly understanding the beef (complaint) is key to resolution. Suggesting a balance is key to a moderator role. I've worked individually with what I call 'problem children' though they often are not children at all. I discuss the problem and the need and find a happy medium. Sometimes I agree to a point and I advocate for programming changes, other times I offer a work around or in the case of VS a mod would be appropriate.

I read almost every post on this thread before I wrote this reply and I saw some great feedback/responses that genuinely reflect the community that I expect/respect. Not just here, but what I would like to see everywhere on the internet, I'm not so naive to expect it but I'm happy to see it here and hope that we can continue.

Nom / Rick Howd

 

By far the most common disruption on forums both intentionally and subconsciously that exists everywhere, including all social media and even the government itself is the use of sophistry.

 Here is an example of why its so effective (I will use AI example instead of my own to try and avoid re-sophistry attacks)

Poster: 'cutting a person with a knife is a crime, surgeons cut people with knifes therefor surgeons are criminals'

Now if the reply is

Reply: 'That is absurd!'

who is actually being disruptive? 

 

another one might be to make claims that are false but can not be prooven as such. I am not sure that is actually sofistry or not but here is an example:

Poster: 'I panned sand for 10 hours straight and it was fun!'

reply: 'I struggle to believe that'

who is being disruptive in this example?

Edited 14 hours ago by CastIronFabric

[Teh Pizza Lady]

1 hour ago, CastIronFabric said:

 Here is an example of why its so effective (I will use AI example instead of my own to try and avoid re-sophistry attacks)

Poster: 'cutting a person with a knife is a crime, surgeons cut people with knifes therefor surgeons are criminals'

Now if the reply is

Reply: 'That is absurd!'

who is actually being disruptive? 

I want to be careful here since this thread is meant to be neutral ground.

This example doesn't really demonstrate sophistry, but rather false equivalence. Surgery involves prior consent and medical purpose. Assault by nature does not and is a crime because of it. If a surgeon were to cut someone without their consent it would be a crime. So the question is not who is being disruptive, it becomes a question of whether or not the logic can stand on its own, which it clearly does not. The reply of "That is absurd" is the common sense response. It really needn't be said, but, such is the way things go sometimes. Now if the poster doubled down on their stance, then they could theoretically be labeled as disruptive, but that's a very wild swing at a wide curve ball. Any chance of getting a hit is second to none.

1 hour ago, CastIronFabric said:

another one might be to make claims that are false but can not be prooven as such. I am not sure that is actually sofistry or not but here is an example:

Poster: 'I panned sand for 10 hours straight and it was fun!'

reply: 'I struggle to believe that'

who is being disruptive in this example?

This example isn't really sophistry either but a false shift of the burden of proof. Saying, "I panned sand for 10 hours straight and it was fun!" is a statement of personal experience. You never know what you're going to actually get when panning and the surprise of getting a lorebook or a gold nugget can be all a person needs to keep going. If someone then claims "no, it wasn't. panning isn't fun" the burden of proof doesn't lie with the person who had the experience, because experience is subjective. Any claim that contradicts someone's lived reality bears the burden of proof because it is making the first objective claim.

That said, disagreement alone is not necessarily disruptive, but when someone continuously disagrees with folks on the forums when they're trying to discuss game mechanics or talk about their experiences or knowledge in real world activities that are emulated in the game, then that person is denying reality and refusing to engage in good faith discussion. That is the type of disruptive behavior we are talking about here in this thread and that is the kind that making people want to shy away from the forums and put others on the block list.

I hope that clears it up for you and helps you understand why this thread exists.

Edited 13 hours ago by Teh Pizza Lady

[CastIronFabric]

20 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

I want to be careful here since this thread is meant to be neutral ground.

This example doesn't really demonstrate sophistry, but rather false equivalence.

The example I gave you is word for word copied from Google AI as its example of Sophistry.

The second example (the panning example) I explicitly stated 'I do not think is actually Sophistry'.

The point in the second example is one in which its not a question of disagreement, its calling out a lie of which everyone knows is a lie. If you do that, its you being disruptive not the person lying. That is where people exploit 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by CastIronFabric

[Blaiyze]

47 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

The example I gave you is word for word copied from Google AI as its example of Sophistry.

The second example (the panning example) I explicitly stated 'I do not think is actually Sophistry'.

The point in the second example is one in which its not a question of disagreement, its calling out a lie of which everyone knows is a lie. If you do that, its you being disruptive not the person lying. That is where people exploit 

 

Using AI to try to explain your thought process is intellectually lazy - and it failed to give you a proper example. That is what is called, ironic.

You comment like Jordan Peterson, picking apart meanings of words to bring the discussion into an alligator deathroll of nonsense. Insisting your perspective is the only correct or valid one on a topic as subjective as enjoyment from playing a video game, rather than actually engage in the topic being discussed, is what some would consider trolling. It's the argumentative equivalent of fighting windmills a la Don Quixote; it doesn't provide any substance, and doesn't bring the conversation forward.

 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

1 hour ago, Blaiyze said:

Using AI to try to explain your thought process is intellectually lazy - and it failed to give you a proper example. That is what is called, ironic.

You comment like Jordan Peterson, picking apart meanings of words to bring the discussion into an alligator deathroll of nonsense. Insisting your perspective is the only correct or valid one on a topic as subjective as enjoyment from playing a video game, rather than actually engage in the topic being discussed, is what some would consider trolling. It's the argumentative equivalent of fighting windmills a la Don Quixote; it doesn't provide any substance, and doesn't bring the conversation forward.

 

There is some merit in saying that using AI to draft responses is lazy. AI often tends to give bad responses so much so that ChatGPT has a disclaimer at the bottom of the page saying that it frequently makes mistakes and it is considered the gold standard. Nevertheless, I am trying to keep this thread a neutral ground without breaking any rules. The moderators, for now, have recently reminded me that if I find anyone on the forums to be particularly bothersome and they're not breaking any rules yet, to just block them and move on.

[CastIronFabric]

1 hour ago, Blaiyze said:

Using AI to try to explain your thought process is intellectually lazy - and it failed to give you a proper example. That is what is called, ironic.

You comment like Jordan Peterson, picking apart meanings of words to bring the discussion into an alligator deathroll of nonsense. Insisting your perspective is the only correct or valid one on a topic as subjective as enjoyment from playing a video game, rather than actually engage in the topic being discussed, is what some would consider trolling. It's the argumentative equivalent of fighting windmills a la Don Quixote; it doesn't provide any substance, and doesn't bring the conversation forward.

 

I think getting lost in the semantics over if my example over it being 'sophistry' or 'false equivalence' is missing the entire point of the observation.

The point is, those examples are something that is very common place in forums and social media and even though they are not directly seen as being disruptive, it baits others into loosing composure and are actually the source of disruption @Teh Pizza Lady (take note)

 

Edited 10 hours ago by CastIronFabric

[Teh Pizza Lady]

4 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

I think getting lost in the semantics over if my example over it being 'sophistry' or 'false equivalence' is missing the entire point of the observation.

The point is, those examples are something that is very common place in forums and social media and even though they are not directly seen as being disruptive, it baits others into loosing composure and are actually the source of disruption @Teh Pizza Lady (take note)

You have completely derailed the thread, now. If you want to discuss these things, start your own threads or use DMs instead.

Stay on topic!

[LadyWYT]

3 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Stay on topic!

To steer us back on topic: I think it was @Broccoli Clock who said it best: don't feed the trolls! If an individual proves to have questionable behavior or otherwise proves to be just a consistently unpleasant person to interact with, it's best to just add them to the Ignored Users list and move on. 

Edit: it was actually Blaiyze. Oops! Point still holds though!

Edited 6 hours ago by LadyWYT

[CastIronFabric]

19 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

You have completely derailed the thread, now. If you want to discuss these things, start your own threads or use DMs instead.

Stay on topic!

actually you did by getting into a debate over semantics of what 'sophistry' means or does not mean and like I said, that is not the relevant point and I would agree getting into a deep dive on the definition of that word would not only miss the point I was illustrating as it related to toxic behavior but also way off topic. What I said, was on topic, your reply was venturing off. I think its unconscious on your part but you are actively doing what I was illustrating as being disruptive.

So in short, making a reply as to what is or is not disruptive is on topic 

Starting an argument over the definition of 'sophistry' however is venturing off topic.

Edited 10 hours ago by CastIronFabric

[Zane Mordien]

4 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

To steer us back on topic:

But was it really off topic? Well you haven't ignored me yet so I guess I'm not .. too bad. Although I have my moments. One of those bad days as @Rick Howd pointed out. I try to catch myself, but my love of being contrary gets the better of me. Just know that you guys are saving my marriage by being around so I can be contrary on the forums and not to my wife .. as much.

[LadyWYT]

1 hour ago, Zane Mordien said:

Well you haven't ignored me yet so I guess I'm not .. too bad. Although I have my moments. One of those bad days as @Rick Howd pointed out. I try to catch myself, but my love of being contrary gets the better of me.

It's quite simple really--you can put up some decent debates, which I can respect. And like I said before, I like to see various perspectives on things, so even if I don't necessarily agree with whatever's being said, it gives me a better idea of what others are thinking. Plus seeing new information gives me a chance to re-examine my own views on some things and change my mind when appropriate.

One of my favorite bits has actually been that time you called me on the ruins stuff, believe it or not.  It was messy and very aggravating at the start, to be sure, but I went and had some cocoa and then explained my reasoning a bit further since something seemed to have gotten lost in translation. And you had a pretty good argument in response, so I've since changed my mind a bit on the subject. To be fair though, I'd rather avoid the messy arguments when possible, as they aren't usually very productive and my patience does have limits.

[Thorfinn]

Yeah, as the forum has become more steamified I've been less inclined to interact. I think I've been pretty good about how to  modify files to change the game for your own preferences. But as people increasingly insist that their preferences are the "truth", I'm getting tired. Maybe the game I've enjoyed is no longer politically correct? OK, do I need to find another game, or those who insist on getting their own way win? 

Edited 1 hour ago by Thorfinn

[Thorfinn]

21 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

OK, do I need to find another game, or those who insist on getting their own way win? 

Edited 18 minutes ago by Thorfinn

I'll be a bit more blunt. Am I permitted to enjoy a game as it existed a mere few months ago, or do I have to adjust my preferences for current sensitivities?