A General Discussion on the State of the Forums

[Teh Pizza Lady]

If you choose 'Other' to any of the questions above, please explain your thoughts in a comment. I'm genuinely interested in hearing different perspectives.

That said, I wanted to start a hopefully constructive and respectful conversation about something I have been noticing over time in the VS forums and the Discord server. This is not meant to call out any specific people or arguments. I am mostly interested in hearing whether others have noticed similar trends, and if so, what we as a community might be able to do to improve things.

When I first started participating in the VS community, the atmosphere felt much more relaxed and collaborative. People would share ideas, suggestions, or critiques, and even when others disagreed, the responses usually stayed constructive. It felt like a group of people who were all interested in the same game and enjoyed discussing how it could grow. Lately, however, the tone of many discussions seems to have shifted. Conversations that used to feel like friendly exchanges of ideas sometimes feel more defensive or confrontational. It can seem as though people approach suggestions as something that must be "won" or "defeated" rather than discussed.

One example I experienced recently was on the Discord server. Someone proposed reworking an upcoming gameplay mechanic that has not yet been fully implemented. My response was that the suggested changes might be premature, since the current system still appears to be in the process of being balanced through release candidates. In other words, it might make sense to see how the system settles before proposing large redesigns. What surprised me was not the disagreement itself, but how quickly discussions like that can become dismissive or personal. In the past, it felt more common for people to respond with something along the lines of:

"This could work, but it might be better suited as a mod rather than part of the base game."

That kind of response left room for further clarification or discussion. Someone might elaborate on their idea, adjust their position, or simply accept that it might not fit the core design. Either way, the conversation remained productive.

Recently, though, disagreements sometimes escalate much faster, and discussion can shift from the idea itself to criticism of the person presenting it. That makes it harder for people to share ideas openly, which is unfortunate because experimentation and discussion are part of what make a community like this valuable.

Another thing I have noticed is how quickly Tyron's news threads can turn negative. When new mechanics are announced, strong reactions often appear within hours of the announcement. While it is natural for people to have opinions, those reactions sometimes arrive before players have had much time to understand the reasoning behind the design changes or how the systems are intended to function. This has to be discouraging to the devs to read. What happened to "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? Is this just a generational difference and younger generations are just more outspoken about things they don't like?

For example, some of the recent discussions around spears and berries illustrate this pattern. These systems were arguably quite easy before, and the game has always positioned itself as a challenging wilderness survival experience. The design philosophy has often emphasized effort leading to reward, rather than convenience leading to rapid progression.

That tension between challenge and convenience seems to be where many disagreements come from. Some players prefer systems that are more forgiving or streamlined, while others appreciate the harsher survival mechanics that make success feel earned. Both perspectives are understandable, but when discussions turn hostile it becomes difficult to actually explore those differences.

Personally, I do not think the problem is that people disagree. Disagreement is healthy for a community and often leads to better ideas. The issue seems to be the tone in which those disagreements sometimes happen. Bearing in mind, of course, that tone is lost in text conversations, but sometimes the word choices are quite evident that people are getting upset when disagreeing with each other.

So I am curious whether others have noticed something similar. Has the overall tone of discussions changed, or am I simply seeing isolated cases? If there has been a shift, what do you think might be contributing to it?

More importantly, what can we do as a community to keep discussions productive and welcoming, even when we strongly disagree about the direction of the game?

[HalfAxd]

Unfortunately people are people and maturity levels vary wildly.

I think we all have a passion for this game and express it differently...

I know I have engaged critics of certain game systems by trying to show a different side of the story.  It hasn't always been received well.

I just move on and trust in Tyron's judgement. 

[Shoom]

I haven't been around here for very long and I browse rather sporadically but from my own experience I think the vast majority here on the forums seem respectful, nice and welcoming. I haven't had any bad experiences myself.  

As the game gets older I think people lock into certain playstyles and then when a major overhaul releases it may disrupt said playstyle and that's the main cause for backlash.

Personally I have nothing except positive things to say of 1.22, I like all the changes made so far. Blacksmithing is a lot more engaging, berries aren't quite the powerhouse they once were and fishing is a fun and relaxing way to pass time, I think it's an all around great update and see no reason whatsoever to be upset, I'm just delighted to have more content to play with.

As for the Discord, I can't say since I'm not on there. I prefer the forum format over the live format of platforms like Discord, I think by nature it's more impulsive so it wouldn't surprise me if there are more vocal reactions over there.

Edited March 10 by Shoom

[LadyWYT]

I voted "Yes" on each question, but wanted to explain my reasoning as to the "why".

Every so often the forums go through their own equivalent of a temporal storm, in a sense, and get a little dramatic for a while before chilling back out. It tends to happen most often when an update drops, since updates bring with them many changes and players are, understandably, going to have varying opinions on those reactions. It's also likely to happen when more divisive areas of the game come up in discussion, like combat or temporal storms. That's not to say those discussions shouldn't happen--indeed they should because that's how the good ideas get brainstormed, oftentimes. However, that doesn't mean such discussions are always going to be the most fun, so to speak.

Also keep in mind that as the game continues to grow, there's going to be new arrivals to the community, both good and bad. 

I think maybe the best litmus test for the overall health of the forums is to look at what happens when a new player arrives, or a player is otherwise asking for help. Generally, the community, both veterans and newer arrivals, will show up with warm welcomes and a friendly variety of advice and jokes/stories about various game experiences. 

20 minutes ago, HalfAxd said:

I know I have engaged critics of certain game systems by trying to show a different side of the story.  It hasn't always been received well.

I just move on and trust in Tyron's judgement. 

Same.

 

34 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Another thing I have noticed is how quickly Tyron's news threads can turn negative. When new mechanics are announced, strong reactions often appear within hours of the announcement. While it is natural for people to have opinions, those reactions sometimes arrive before players have had much time to understand the reasoning behind the design changes or how the systems are intended to function. This has to be discouraging to the devs to read.

I've had similar concerns, however, it's not just the devs I'm concerned about; it's also newer players, or those otherwise considering whether or not to give Vintage Story a try. Not everything needs to be sunshine and roses 24/7, but if I saw a game's community constantly trashing the game then I'd be more inclined to give the game a hard pass.

It's also why I try to be very careful when giving advice to new players, and recommend trying the game on Standard difficulty first, while also making a note of Exploration difficulty and other settings they can change if they find Standard to be a little too difficult for fun learning. That is, I try to make sure they're aware they have options to make the experience easier if they wish, rather than try to push them to play the game in a very specific fashion(for example, making them aware that there's an option to disable temporal storms and temporal mechanics if they decide they don't like those mechanics, rather than telling them to immediately disable those things).

47 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

That tension between challenge and convenience seems to be where many disagreements come from. Some players prefer systems that are more forgiving or streamlined, while others appreciate the harsher survival mechanics that make success feel earned. Both perspectives are understandable, but when discussions turn hostile it becomes difficult to actually explore those differences.

Personally, I do not think the problem is that people disagree. Disagreement is healthy for a community and often leads to better ideas. The issue seems to be the tone in which those disagreements sometimes happen. Bearing in mind, of course, that tone is lost in text conversations, but sometimes the word choices are quite evident that people are getting upset when disagreeing with each other.

I think part of it is also we sometimes forget to explain the reasoning behind some opinions and ideas. To try to use sticks as an example: stick-crafting is not an uncommon request in the Suggestions part of the forums. Oftentimes it gets brushed off with "We don't need stick crafting because sticks are easy enough to gather with shears"(which is the stance I take, by the way). However, on a large multiplayer server, sticks can be a real issue due to spawn getting picked clean, which may also include all the bushes getting sheared and trees getting cut down without getting replanted. In that context, adding some way to craft sticks makes a lot more sense, but it's not necessarily the kind of problem most players will be aware of since most probably don't play on large multiplayer servers.

 

5 minutes ago, Shoom said:

As the game gets older I think people lock into certain playstyles and then when a major overhaul releases it may disrupt said playstyle and that's the main cause for backlash.

This too. My own strategies will absolutely be changing in 1.22, and I don't think that's a bad thing. It's also something I'm going to consider when offering advice as well, as while there are strategies that are better than others, the game is quite flexible and the most optimal strategy by the numbers isn't necessarily the most fun. 

[All Mat]

I voted yes in every option because I think the forum is healthy enough in general, I just wanted to say I find myself very, very bored with the entire berry situation (I like the changes, new update is a 10/10).

[williams_482]

I'm a relatively recent member, and I found this forum to be quite welcoming. Certainly relative to many other online spaces in the year 2026. 

Unfortunately as a community expands, a downturn in quality of discourse is almost inevitable. More total people means more nice and reasonable people, and also more rude, aggressive, immature, or otherwise disruptive persons. Calmer folks are less likely to weigh in if they think someone else has already said their piece so their numbers growing isn't all that visible, while the handful of folks inclined towards disruptive behavior make themselves very visible. That visible disruptive behavior itself has a chilling effect on other users, chasing away the kinds of people who just want a friendly chat and not a flame war. This isn't a comment on the current state of this forum so much as how online communities generally go.

The only real way to stop this is active moderation. Moderators have to be willing and able to quickly and firmly establish what behavior is or is not acceptable, giving violators the opportunity to correct their behavior and removing them if they refuse. Regular users can have some influence here by modeling good behavior and gently nudging troublemakers to behave better, but some users only respond to consequences which regular users are powerless to dispense. Unfortunately, content moderation here appears somewhat lacking.

I understand why: moderating a forum is a crappy, thankless job where you have to put up with being called a nazi for telling people they should be nicer. You have power, but if that sort of power is inherently rewarding to you then you are probably not a person who should be trusted with it. I should know; I experienced the mixed blessing of moderating a modestly large online community for almost a decade.

This forum has the added bonus of every user being a paying customer, and telling paying customers that they need to change their behavior or be removed can have an immediate negative impact on the company's bottom line. Not doing this can be much worse in the long run, but the effects aren't so immediately obvious so quickly. There's also the aspect where the worst users we get here start by being very aggressive about how bad some part of the game is. The devs probably feel like they can take that criticism and don't want to look thin skinned, but being really mean to the devs encourages bad behavior from other users who want to defend the developers, and the whole situation turns toxic very quickly. I'm actually impressed by how resilient this community has been to those sorts of things: we've had some relatively hostile threads started by someone wildly overreacting to the recent update, and although they weren't good by any means, I expected much worse. The core users here (especially, but far from only, LadyWYT) being calm and reasonable is the reason things didn't spiral more than they did. 

I get the sense that this board used to be moderated more stringently, because there is at least one user (I think a couple) who clearly used to be regular contributors, but replaced their forum signatures with angry criticisms of the game and show up once in a blue moon to complain about how they were "censored" or "silenced." Obviously these people had some complaint which they took way too far, suffered appropriate consequences, and lack the maturity to recognize that they were the problem.

Dealing with users like this sucks! You feel bad because they used to act reasonable and be helpful contributors, but they did actually step over a line, and they responded so poorly to being warned about it that they turned into huge toxic problems almost instantly and had to be removed entirely. You worry that you could have phrased things better (because you know damn well you aren't perfect either), and maybe then this obviously unstable person could have just continued doing their helpful and reasonable things. Wallow in that for too long and you get trigger shy about correcting even really obvious bad behavior. 

With all that said I may be wrong about the moderation here. The moderation team could plausibly be doing their jobs strictly in private without feeling the need to show the flag, and none of us would know the difference unless we decided to start getting in fights. In which case props to them. In any case I wish them all good luck in keeping this place as pleasant as possible. 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

49 minutes ago, Shoom said:

As for the Discord, I can't say since I'm not on there. I prefer the forum format over the live format of platforms like Discord, I think by nature it's more impulsive so it wouldn't surprise me if there are more vocal reactions over there.

It's good to collaborate with other mod authors there, but other channels can be a bit unhinged. It's a whole different vibe. In my experience with large, open-chat Discord servers what happens is you get a few people all in a clique and they are warm and friendly to each other but very stand-offish to others not in their little group. This is not isolated just to the VS Discord either, but in pretty much every other Discord I've joined that had a significant number of users for these little sub groups to form.

54 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I voted "Yes" on each question, but wanted to explain my reasoning as to the "why".

I suppose I could have also added that option...

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

I've had similar concerns, however, it's not just the devs I'm concerned about; it's also newer players, or those otherwise considering whether or not to give Vintage Story a try. Not everything needs to be sunshine and roses 24/7, but if I saw a game's community constantly trashing the game then I'd be more inclined to give the game a hard pass.

It's also why I try to be very careful when giving advice to new players, and recommend trying the game on Standard difficulty first, while also making a note of Exploration difficulty and other settings they can change if they find Standard to be a little too difficult for fun learning.

I think another issue that I've seen but didn't talk about is that more visible users trying the game for the first time might not want to try it on standard because they always play Skyrim on Legendary, Minecraft on Hardcore, so they *must* play Vintage Story on Wilderness Survival mode and can't understand why people are telling them to just lower the game difficulty. Skyrim isn't hard enough for a lot of players old and new alike. Minecraft's Hardcore is pretty much the default. Vintage Story's Wilderness Survival is brutal so they think the game needs to be rebalanced, not realizing that the standard difficulty is already sufficiently challenging enough for the average player.

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

I think part of it is also we sometimes forget to explain the reasoning behind some opinions and ideas. To try to use sticks as an example: stick-crafting is not an uncommon request in the Suggestions part of the forums. Oftentimes it gets brushed off with "We don't need stick crafting because sticks are easy enough to gather with shears"(which is the stance I take, by the way). However, on a large multiplayer server, sticks can be a real issue due to spawn getting picked clean, which may also include all the bushes getting sheared and trees getting cut down without getting replanted. In that context, adding some way to craft sticks makes a lot more sense, but it's not necessarily the kind of problem most players will be aware of since most probably don't play on large multiplayer servers.

Literally just break the branchy leaf blocks before chopping the tree. You'll get like 8-10 sticks per tree for free. A lot of players don't know this so they immediately go to trying to think of how other games implement sticks which is breaking down board into sticks. Both of course require effort, but the wood > planks > sticks path in VS would require the use of a saw which doesn't come until well after you need the sticks in the first place.

7 minutes ago, williams_482 said:

I'm a relatively recent member, and I found this forum to be quite welcoming. Certainly relative to many other online spaces in the year 2026. 

Unfortunately as a community expands, a downturn in quality of discourse is almost inevitable. More total people means more nice and reasonable people, and also more rude, aggressive, immature, or otherwise disruptive persons. Calmer folks are less likely to weigh in if they think someone else has already said their piece so their numbers growing isn't all that visible, while the handful of folks inclined towards disruptive behavior make themselves very visible. That visible disruptive behavior itself has a chilling effect on other users, chasing away the kinds of people who just want a friendly chat and not a flame war. This isn't a comment on the current state of this forum so much as how online communities generally go.

The only real way to stop this is active moderation. Moderators have to be willing and able to quickly and firmly establish what behavior is or is not acceptable, giving violators the opportunity to correct their behavior and removing them if they refuse. Regular users can have some influence here by modeling good behavior and gently nudging troublemakers to behave better, but some users only respond to consequences which regular users are powerless to dispense. Unfortunately, content moderation here appears somewhat lacking.

I understand why: moderating a forum is a crappy, thankless job where you have to put up with being called a nazi for telling people they should be nicer. You have power, but if that sort of power is inherently rewarding to you then you are probably not a person who should be trusted with it. I should know; I experienced the mixed blessing of moderating a modestly large online community for almost a decade.

This forum has the added bonus of every user being a paying customer, and telling paying customers that they need to change their behavior or be removed can have an immediate negative impact on the company's bottom line. Not doing this can be much worse in the long run, but the effects aren't so immediately obvious so quickly. There's also the aspect where the worst users we get here start by being very aggressive about how bad some part of the game is. The devs probably feel like they can take that criticism and don't want to look thin skinned, but being really mean to the devs encourages bad behavior from other users who want to defend the developers, and the whole situation turns toxic very quickly. I'm actually impressed by how resilient this community has been to those sorts of things: we've had some relatively hostile threads started by someone wildly overreacting to the recent update, and although they weren't good by any means, I expected much worse. The core users here (especially, but far from only, LadyWYT) being calm and reasonable is the reason things didn't spiral more than they did. 

I get the sense that this board used to be moderated more stringently, because there is at least one user (I think a couple) who clearly used to be regular contributors, but replaced their forum signatures with angry criticisms of the game and show up once in a blue moon to complain about how they were "censored" or "silenced." Obviously these people had some complaint which they took way too far, suffered appropriate consequences, and lack the maturity to recognize that they were the problem.

Dealing with users like this sucks! You feel bad because they used to act reasonable and be helpful contributors, but they did actually step over a line, and they responded so poorly to being warned about it that they turned into huge toxic problems almost instantly and had to be removed entirely. You worry that you could have phrased things better (because you know damn well you aren't perfect either), and maybe then this obviously unstable person could have just continued doing their helpful and reasonable things. Wallow in that for too long and you get trigger shy about correcting even really obvious bad behavior. 

With all that said I may be wrong about the moderation here. The moderation team could plausibly be doing their jobs strictly in private without feeling the need to show the flag, and none of us would know the difference unless we decided to start getting in fights. In which case props to them. In any case I wish them all good luck in keeping this place as pleasant as possible. 

I think this is a really thoughtful take and I appreciate you taking the time to write this. It also generally lines up with my own observations as well.

One thing you mentioned that I wanted to highlight was the visibility problem. Calm, reasonable users often say their piece and move on and go ignored, while the handful of people who want to drag out the argument and go on and on and on will just keep posting over and over, feeding each other in an endless feedback loop until someone steps in to break it up. This can make it look like the whole forum is more hostile than it actually is, when it's just 2-3 users who really just need to block each other and move on.

I also appreciate you pointing out how difficult moderation can be. I, myself, have extensive experience being both a subreddit moderator as well as a Discord moderator, and now currently a forum moderator, all for completely different platforms not related to Vintage Story. When you become part of the community you control, maintaining balance without making it seem like you're power-tripping is a very thin line to walk. You have to let criticism roll off your shoulders, but when it turns into hostility, it tends to poison the well for everyone else even if it wasn't directed at them. You suspect the moderation happens behind the scenes. I know it does. I've spoken to the moderators in private and they've mentioned internal chats about things. They're probably watching this thread right now. In many ways this is the best outcome, handling things behind the scenes via user messages and private chats because it keeps things running without turning every intervention into a public spectacle.

At the end of the day, communities reflect the tone set by the majority of the contributors. When the core users stay calm, reasonable, and constructive, it goes a LONG way towards preventing things from spiraling, but when those calm, reasonable, and constructive contributors don't feel welcome anymore or have to take a break because the toxicity of other users is starting to get to them, then its the beginning of the decline until something happens to shift it back to where it needs to be. Toxic positivity isn't the answer, but neither is toxic negativity. You can be negative without filling the space with negativity and I think a lot of people just don't take pushback very well. Some of them use the internet. Some of those end up on video game forums. It's just inevitable. But by modeling the attitudes and conversation space we want to have, they can start to mimic the people they're around and self-adjust.

[Carber]

From what I have seen I think this forum is usually welcoming and quite respectful , much more than many other game forums that I know at least. One problem I see is that comments that represent any kind of criticism of new features or the difficulty in general receive little support, and are almost always met with opposition, especially from more hardcore players. That's why I don't usually bother commenting here much on those subjects, and I suspect that some new players might do the same. On the other hand, I will always defend and support this game, which I love, and its developers, here and anywhere.

 

[Blaiyze]

Generally yes, respectful environment by way forums go - which is impressive as many forums have full on imploded over the years due to user generated drama or bs. I've been here about 3 years but have mostly been a quiet lurker until the last while.

My general rule: the internet is awash with highly opinionated folks, a$$hats, trolls, and people just looking for outlets because they don't have a better way of processing things, so they act like an anonymous d!ck online. Simple answer: don't feed the trolls. It usually becomes apparent very quickly, within a couple messages or so, when someone is arguing in bad faith or otherwise just trying to get a rise out of you. When you recognize that that's what is happening - stop engaging. In short, don't feed the trolls. They will eventually either see themselves out because no one is taking the bait, or they'll just become quiet. 

Even when someone tries to make a debate personal, it's our choice how we decide to feel about it and especially, how we choose to respond about it. Don't let people under your skin, they're not paying your bills or living your life, ergo they're not worth the wasted energy.

Otherwise, I really enjoy hearing the various perspectives from people on this forum; there's fantastic feedback and discussions about a wide variety of features, mechanics, and goofy stories, and ultimately, that's what I love about this community. Stepping up moderation could perhaps wrangle the outliers a bit, reminding them that this isn't exactly an anonymous free zone to be an unmitigated lint ball over things - but that's up to the dev team. 

Edited March 10 by Blaiyze

[Calmest_of_lakes]

I voted yes on all but #3.

One thing I have noticed that is common enough is when people either act dismissive, or deliberately misinterpret another person who is voicing either an opinion, critique, or suggestion for improvement for a mechanic. It feels like arguing for the sake of it, or maybe just getting defensive? 

For me, atleast, it's just as unconstructive as complaining for the sake of it. 

[Vexxvididu]

2 hours ago, williams_482 said:

I'm a relatively recent member, and I found this forum to be quite welcoming. Certainly relative to many other online spaces in the year 2026. 

Agreed!  The internet attracts all sorts of "characters" who just like to cause trouble.  I actually feel like most people on this forum are at least as welcoming as they should be.  There have even been times where I felt like people here we nice to newcomers who were almost trying to stir the pot a bit.

I am a relatively recent member here, so can't speak to how the place may have changed over time.  I never felt like people were unironically mean to me for having an opinion.  I'm actually very active in some forums where I had a harder time getting past the "Grrrr, new person, grrrr" phase.

It is 100% a mathematical inevitability that bigger communities will have more trouble makers.  Humans naturally remember negative encounters more strongly than positive ones even when positive ones are actually a lot more common.  I think when you put those effects together, many communities will FEEL more hostile as they grow, even when that's not really the case.

TL;DR: I voted yes for each question and feel this community is less hostile than the average gaming community.

[7embre]

5 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Lately, however, the tone of many discussions seems to have shifted. Conversations that used to feel like friendly exchanges of ideas sometimes feel more defensive or confrontational. It can seem as though people approach suggestions as something that must be "won" or "defeated" rather than discussed.

Yep, noticed this as well. Many just expeess their concerns before trying new features, and it gets into snowball fight, with occasional stones in them. Even though I selected "yes" on all of the questions, third one passes with hard emphasis on "usually". It very much depends on how hot the topic is. Guess it's just a nature of community growth, those with extreme behaviour tend to burn like blue stars — very bright, yet fleeting. And I haven't seen many of them since the argument, for whatever reason, even if the topic got resolved peacefully in the end (or so it seemed). In general I think that community is getting more and more reasonable people staying.

Spoiler

Just imagine the amount of prejudiced opinions if game ever releases on steam, ugh

Edit: Though I must add, forums are very welcoming to all people, and I love it.

Edited March 10 by 7embre

[Teh Pizza Lady]

2 hours ago, Carber said:

From what I have seen I think this forum is usually welcoming and quite respectful , much more than many other game forums that I know at least. One problem I see is that comments that represent any kind of criticism of new features or the difficulty in general receive little support, and are almost always met with opposition, especially from more hardcore players.

I myself am guilty of opposing the criticizing comments of the new features, mainly because the features are still in their infancy. Take the forging and berries for example, the only data we had for them came from the pre.# updates which is when things are still being built. The rc.# updates are when things are tuned and adjusted. The criticism isn't unwanted or even unwelcome. It's just not the right time for it. Let the construction workers get a chance to get the support beams on the house before we add a 2nd floor, in a manner of speaking, even though it's a poor analogy. But as a developer myself, I know all too well the importance of keeping something as it is and finishing it before adding something extra to it lest I fall into the never-ending pit of "scope creep" where a project is never finished because I keep tweaking it instead of just fleshing out all the features and then giving it balance passes.

I understand this is a long-winded reply to your two sentences that I quoted, but I thought that in the spirit of the thread, that a little honesty about my own actions might go a long way towards continuing to foster good relationships with people on the forums.

53 minutes ago, Blaiyze said:

My general rule: the internet is awash with highly opinionated folks, a$$hats, trolls, and people just looking for outlets because they don't have a better way of processing things, so they act like an anonymous d!ck online. Simple answer: don't feed the trolls. It usually becomes apparent very quickly, within a couple messages or so, when someone is arguing in bad faith or otherwise just trying to get a rise out of you. When you recognize that that's what is happening - stop engaging. In short, don't feed the trolls. They will eventually either see themselves out because no one is taking the bait, or they'll just become quiet. 

Even when someone tries to make a debate personal, it's our choice how we decide to feel about it and especially, how we choose to respond about it. Don't let people under your skin, they're not paying your bills or living your life, ergo they're not worth the wasted energy.

These are hard words to read because I know that I haven't always been the best at maintaining a good online presence and need this reminder from time to time. Thanks for saying what I'm sure a lot of people are thinking and even more need to read.

31 minutes ago, Calmest_of_lakes said:

One thing I have noticed that is common enough is when people either act dismissive, or deliberately misinterpret another person who is voicing either an opinion, critique, or suggestion for improvement for a mechanic. It feels like arguing for the sake of it, or maybe just getting defensive? 

For me, atleast, it's just as unconstructive as complaining for the sake of it.

It's a knee-jerk reaction. Usually when people act with hostility towards an innocent comment, it's because they are not reacting to the comment, but something else. I think a lot of the arguments we see come from people not communicating with the intent to be understanding but with the intent to be understood. Pushback is perceived as personal because they're not getting what they want, which isn't to discuss their opinions, critiques, or suggestions, but to just say something and have it be heard and considered by someone. In my opinion, that is something that is better done with a close group of friends and not on a public forum.

24 minutes ago, Vexxvididu said:

I am a relatively recent member here, so can't speak to how the place may have changed over time.  I never felt like people were unironically mean to me for having an opinion.  I'm actually very active in some forums where I had a harder time getting past the "Grrrr, new person, grrrr" phase.

It is 100% a mathematical inevitability that bigger communities will have more trouble makers.  Humans naturally remember negative encounters more strongly than positive ones even when positive ones are actually a lot more common.  I think when you put those effects together, many communities will FEEL more hostile as they grow, even when that's not really the case.

This is more in response to the last bit than it is to the first, but the first impression a person makes is almost always the lasting impression. Even if the person has been an established member of a community for years, if they make a bad impression on a newcomer, that newcomer won't share the same opinion of the person that everyone else has of them.

The bigger the community, the more likely that the newcomer will then feel isolated and start lashing out at that person and making a general nuisance of themselves. I cannot recall the number of times I've had to ban a new member of a discord server or forum for being downright toxic to another member all because a misunderstanding that happened behind the scenes and it carried over into every interaction from then on with the newcomer constantly picking fights until we had to say "enough is enough" and put a stop to it. I've even had to sit them both down in the same room and just be like, "Please help me understand the issue that you two have and help me understand why new person A is coming here and picking fights with long-standing person B and I'm having to mute like 15 other people for joining in the fight who didn't even know what was going on!" Talk about a hostile community, LOL.

28 minutes ago, 7embre said:

Many just expeess their concerns before trying new features

I always tell my kids, "You can't say you don't like something if you haven't tried it yet."

And they give it a hesitant try.

Sometimes it's the best thing ever, sometimes it's the worst. Other times we try it again and it's better the second time. It all comes down to fear of the unknown. Something was a certain way. Now it's different. Change is scary. As you get older, you understand that change is inevitable, but for folks who are not quite there yet, change can be the biggest upset of their lives.

[Blaiyze]

14 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

These are hard words to read because I know that I haven't always been the best at maintaining a good online presence and need this reminder from time to time. Thanks for saying what I'm sure a lot of people are thinking and even more need to read.

Honestly, I've always read your responses as someone who deeply enjoys and cares about this game - as I'm sure majority of us do - and we WANT to see this game not only continue development and eventually finish, we want to see the development be good rather than go down some of the disaster pipelines other games have gone. 

I make a deliberate point to not play the pre and rc releases because I understand that new features may well be underbaked, so I'll withhold harsh criticism until the release is fully stabilized and then give opinions. Overall I like where VS is going and enjoy the community here. I also typically avoid discord because it's very impulsive and divisive.

 

[LadyWYT]

31 minutes ago, Vexxvididu said:

Humans naturally remember negative encounters more strongly than positive ones even when positive ones are actually a lot more common.

3 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

This is more in response to the last bit than it is to the first, but the first impression a person makes is almost always the lasting impression. Even if the person has been an established member of a community for years, if they make a bad impression on a newcomer, that newcomer won't share the same opinion of the person that everyone else has of them.

So much this too. Just my general observations here, but I think in terms of the forums this factor can be especially harsh to newer members. First impressions really are everything and positive first impressions often get overlooked, I think, because most newcomers tend to be pretty chill and fun to interact with, but unless they become a regular face they fade into the crowd quite easily. In contrast, some of them come in swinging at practically everything and everyone, in which case everyone else(whether new, veteran, or lurker, doesn't matter) absolutely will make a note of that and take such memories into account for future interactions, both with those particular individuals and other new arrivals that may not have the same personality but may display some similar behaviors.

 

[space llama]

guess i`ll throw my opinion in the ring, on the forums themselves its mostly constructive with some outliers here and there, i find however the latest discussion to have soured even here a bit, on the discord its downright horrendous with how its been going but i feel that's nothing new, i don't know i`ve been mostly passive for a time now and recent discussion has made me want to retreat and just enjoy the game with minimal community interaction i`ve seen these patterns before and i`m not sure i want to stick around from when it becomes bad if ever, for its not so bad now, but i really fear whats to come as i really like this game and honestly have had some rather nice talks, and there is feedback or suggestions i want to give for the game but i feel i may hold of on that just because of how things have gone, my fear may be overreacting a bit but i`ve seen and been a part of so many communist i`ve liked that have turned less then friendly over time, and i really don`t want to see that happened to a game i love as much as this one. 

all in all i feel the forums are fine for now, but i fear what may come

[dakko]

6 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

When I first started participating in the VS community, the atmosphere felt much more relaxed and collaborative. People would share ideas, suggestions, or critiques, and even when others disagreed, the responses usually stayed constructive.

The atmosphere cycles up and down [observation over several years]. If anyone is truly out of line, the moderators will step in.

I only have a few minutes, so only skimmed the bulk of the thread. I don't think anyone has mentioned the cultural makeup of this forum...

There is a book that talks about cultural differences and how what is normal for one culture is offensive to another: Kiss, Bow, or Shake Hands. I've seen this play out here, where someone from a country that is known for having blunt speech was treated with intolerance, no doubt because what he was saying was considered extremely rude and argumentative. Same bluntness can be true for neurodivergence, or some cognitive impairments, etc.

Here is why I think it is important: Tone is provided by the reader. If that reader comes from a culture where bluntness or directness is offensive, then all kinds of negative connotations will be assigned to what has been said.

I totally exasperated a friend from Hong Kong one day because his speech was so indirect that I had no idea what he was trying to say until he spelled it out very clearly. It was something we had to realize about each other and come to terms with. My bluntness was uncomfortable for him, and his indirectness / 'politeness' was lost on me.

Anyway, your poll opens up an interesting topic and I look forward to coming back to finish reading later.

 

[dakko]

Don't worry, @space llama. We've seen some rough spots in the forums but they've always smoothed back out again. Folks may also be more mindful after reading this thread; I know that I will.

If ever there is someone that is being disruptive, you can always mute them so that you do not see their posts (or their tag lines, or whatever you choose). The mods are also here to help, so don't hesitate to report problematic behavior! I can't speak for discord though; I stopped going there several years ago.

It saddens me that you might leave because you seem like a really nice person. I hope that you will stick around. (I also tend to retreat and can relate to what you are saying)

[dakko]

13 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Another thing I have noticed is how quickly Tyron's news threads can turn negative. When new mechanics are announced, strong reactions often appear within hours of the announcement. While it is natural for people to have opinions, those reactions sometimes arrive before players have had much time to understand the reasoning behind the design changes or how the systems are intended to function. This has to be discouraging to the devs to read. What happened to "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all"? Is this just a generational difference and younger generations are just more outspoken about things they don't like?

I must say that this is an interesting comment, especially the first part, in light of the recent berry discussion. I'm no longer in discord, and I generally do not play the non-stable versions (I need the Accessibility Tweaks mod). So my entire knowledge of berries came from Tyron's post, and maybe one or two player comments in the news threads. Tyron made other comments in discord that I was not aware of until someone posted them here. Those comments completely changed my opinion, and I felt assured that everything would be fine. I even saw the berries for myself in rc-2, briefly, but I feel good about the berries now.

All of that to say, some of us are not getting the benefit of additional input from the dev team unless someone thinks to post it here. Is it possible that this is contributing to strong reactions within the forum?

For the difference in generations -- I am unclear as to whether my comments (about fertilization of berries as being unrealistic) were problematic, falling into the category of, 'if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all'. If so, it is not a "younger" generational thing as I am probably the oldest person here.

And it also raises my curiosity as to how my comments were perceived. Now that I'm thinking about it in light of the poll, I'm wondering if I should have kept my thoughts to myself. My comments were not meant as criticism, but maybe that is how they were perceived. With these thoughts in mind, I have to answer "other" to the second question as I am currently feeling uncomfortable and self-conscious (I mean, I am literally puzzling this out as I write and wondering if someone will take it in a way other than what I am trying to convey) Full disclosure: I am socially awkward, do speak bluntly, and often say precisely what I am thinking.

11 hours ago, Carber said:

...One problem I see is that comments that represent any kind of criticism of new features or the difficulty in general receive little support, and are almost always met with opposition, especially from more hardcore players...

Yes, I've noticed this too (and agree with your other comments). Actually, I suspect this may be the most common area of conflict.

Which reminds me that I was a bit put-off by people saying that they were tired of hearing about berries. Well, no, actually I think the comment that bothered me was something along the lines of we were being an emotional drain. I was under the impression that these forums are where we can discuss our thoughts and opinions, but if someone else has already heard it all, then we are not allowed to say anything? I dunno... it just doesn't sit well with me somehow. I really love my berries (irl) and had something to say. Now I am unsure if that is okay or not. So, um, yeah. My answer to the last two questions is "Other" and you've witnessed the process of me thinking it through. (and again I find myself hesitating - is someone going to think I'm being argumentative? Or critical? or something else that I haven't thought of yet?)

If the poll had been conducted before The Great Berry Kerfuffle, then my answers would have been "Yes."

14 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

More importantly, what can we do as a community to keep discussions productive and welcoming, even when we strongly disagree about the direction of the game?

That is a good question. Realizing that we are all different, and choosing not to be offended by those differences, would go a long way to keep it from becoming personal. Realizing that it is okay for someone else to express their thoughts, just as you've expressed yours (we needn't strive to 'have the last word'). I imagine that acknowledgement of the other person's point would also help them feel 'heard' which helps the discussion stay in the realm of exchanging ideas (even opposing ideas) rather than argument.

[Broccoli Clock]

For the most part I think the forum is fairly welcoming, but I answered "other" for two remaining categories and that is down to context. Not all suggestions, complaints, criticisms are equal. Some are from people who think they are entitled to have the devs design the game specifically for their tastes, some are from those that are quite clearly trolling, and some are suggestions that are simply unworkable even if the devs liked the idea. There is a huge difference between someone dismissing an idea based on vibes, and dismissing it because they've spent 3 years playing the game and know it inside and out. Just saying "that's daft" is not explicitly a negative, however it's incumbent on that poster to provide an explanation as to the push back rather just "because I say so".

I am a bit old school, I've used forums for decades (written them, written mods for them, moderated them, hosted them, etc) so feel comfortable in this environment. I don't use Discord, originally because it just seemed like a mash up of teamspeak and IRC with added surveillance tagged on top. Now that is even more apparent. In terms of support though, I do find that Discord is a good location to ask questions. I think the worst place to post is on Reddit, and that's just down to the whole meta of Reddit. Good if you want to show off some artwork or screenshot, not great for discussing the minutia of a subject.

If I am being honest, I know I can be a little bit spiky in general, and I am aware of that, and some of that is down to my autistic brain either over thinking or reading too much into something, but I don't think I cross any metaphorical lines (or even get close to crossing lines). I am more than open for people to say, "hey, bc, you're being a dick here..", and despite my posting style coming across as if I am right all the time (..am I not right all the time?) I am well aware that many times I'm just guessing and happy to be corrected. If someone does bug me though, I'll just sit them on ignore and carry on, no need for a bunfight in the forum, and I pretty much expect that from people who may dislike my posts. 

There doesn't seem to be active moderation on this forum, for example not allowing a multitude of threads about the same topic (how many times do we need to see a new thread discussing the merits, or otherwise, of temporal storms), but then perhaps that is intended and it's just "light touch moderation". I don't have any complaints although my OCD brain is always thinking that certain threads could be merged, or moved to a more representative forum section.

Edited March 11 by Broccoli Clock

[LadyWYT]

17 minutes ago, Broccoli Clock said:

There doesn't seem to be active moderation on this forum, for example not allowing a multitude of threads about the same topic (how many times do we need to see a new thread discussing the merits, or otherwise, of temporal storms), but then perhaps that is intended and it's just "light touch moderation".

It could just be the forum style. While the VS forums don't really seem to have a rule for or against necroing threads, the old WoW forums did have rules against necroing. While that did mean repeats of certain subjects, it also made it a little easier(at least, in my opinion) to tell which threads were fresh(and thus, populated by users known to be active) and which were stale(in which case the prior thread participants may or may not even be around any longer).

 

9 hours ago, dakko said:

I can't speak for discord though; I stopped going there several years ago.

I just use it for talking to friends and that's it. One of the main strikes against Discord is that while Anego's moderators are very fair(from what I've seen), if someone decides they really don't like you then they're going to bypass Anego moderation and report you straight to Discord. In which case, you're going to be at the mercy of Discord mods and not Anego Studios.

[Broccoli Clock]

3 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

It could just be the forum style. 

There's not enough traffic here for it to become a problem. I've been a moderator for a forum that had 1000s of users hourly with 100s of posts, this is (and I mean this in no way negatively) a relatively sleepy backwater of the Internet.

3 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

In which case, you're going to be at the mercy of Discord mods and not Anego Studios.

That's always been the problem with Discord, and Reddit too for that matter. You are beholden to an unenlightened middle management type that cares more about whether "their partners" are scrapping data well enough, as to whether some random is annoyed. 

Take the wiki for example, it's curated and hosted locally. Anego has full control over it. You don't have that level of control if, for example, you shift the content onto fandom or some other 3rd party.

[Zane Mordien]

1 hour ago, Broccoli Clock said:

There doesn't seem to be active moderation on this forum, for example not allowing a multitude of threads about the same topic (how many times do we need to see a new thread discussing the merits, or otherwise, of temporal storms), but then perhaps that is intended and it's just "light touch moderation". I don't have any complaints although my OCD brain is always thinking that certain threads could be merged, or moved to a more representative forum section.

I guess I'd rather have new discussions about the same topics occasionaly then have 1000+ page posts that no one is going to bother to read anyway. Although I guess nowadays you can have AI read it for you and summarize it. I believe feedback is good for the developers if they even bother to read the forums. Will they act on what we post? Probably not, but every so often maybe something interesting is posted that they take an idea from for the future. 

 

16 hours ago, dakko said:

It was something we had to realize about each other and come to terms with. My bluntness was uncomfortable for him, and his indirectness / 'politeness' was lost on me.

Man, working with the Japanese nearly killed me, because they would agree in a meeting to be polite and then the next meeting they wanted to reopen the issue and discuss it again. It was a steep learning curve to figure out how to discuss things with them productively. 

 

17 hours ago, space llama said:

there is feedback or suggestions i want to give for the game but i feel i may hold of on that just because of how things have gone, my fear may be overreacting a bit but i`ve seen and been a part of so many communist i`ve liked that have turned less then friendly over time, and i really don`t want to see that happened to a game i love as much as this one.

Always and I mean Always speak up. Just don't take it personal when people don't agree and don't get sucked into the spiral of trying to change someone's opinion because that will never happen. 

I have lots of bad opinions and that's okay. Some people will always say whatever mechanic is perfect, some will say burn it all down and someone will say that's just a bad idea. 

9 hours ago, dakko said:

And it also raises my curiosity as to how my comments were perceived.

I've had to sit through so many training classes at work on how other people perceive what you say and do. For me personally, I haven't taken any great insult by your comments to whatever crack pot complaint or idea I've had.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

9 hours ago, dakko said:

All of that to say, some of us are not getting the benefit of additional input from the dev team unless someone thinks to post it here. Is it possible that this is contributing to strong reactions within the forum?

For the difference in generations -- I am unclear as to whether my comments (about fertilization of berries as being unrealistic) were problematic, falling into the category of, 'if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all'. If so, it is not a "younger" generational thing as I am probably the oldest person here.

And it also raises my curiosity as to how my comments were perceived. Now that I'm thinking about it in light of the poll, I'm wondering if I should have kept my thoughts to myself. My comments were not meant as criticism, but maybe that is how they were perceived. With these thoughts in mind, I have to answer "other" to the second question as I am currently feeling uncomfortable and self-conscious (I mean, I am literally puzzling this out as I write and wondering if someone will take it in a way other than what I am trying to convey) Full disclosure: I am socially awkward, do speak bluntly, and often say precisely what I am thinking.

This was 100% *not* about you or anyone in particular, but I'm glad it gave you pause to think.

We all need to do that sometimes, put ourselves in the other person's shoes and ask, "How will this action affect others? In what ways can I be viewed when I say this? If someone said this to me, what would I think of them?"

It's a hard position to take sometimes. FWIW, I have never thought your critiques/comments on the state of the game were without merit or overboard.

[LadyWYT]

9 hours ago, dakko said:

And it also raises my curiosity as to how my comments were perceived. Now that I'm thinking about it in light of the poll, I'm wondering if I should have kept my thoughts to myself. My comments were not meant as criticism, but maybe that is how they were perceived. With these thoughts in mind, I have to answer "other" to the second question as I am currently feeling uncomfortable and self-conscious (I mean, I am literally puzzling this out as I write and wondering if someone will take it in a way other than what I am trying to convey) Full disclosure: I am socially awkward, do speak bluntly, and often say precisely what I am thinking.

Speaking purely from my perspective, but I recall your comments being fine.  We don't always agree on stuff but the discussion are usually pleasantly productive. When it comes to this kind of thing Broccoli already covered what grinds my gears about certain situations:

1 hour ago, Broccoli Clock said:

Not all suggestions, complaints, criticisms are equal. Some are from people who think they are entitled to have the devs design the game specifically for their tastes, some are from those that are quite clearly trolling, and some are suggestions that are simply unworkable even if the devs liked the idea. There is a huge difference between someone dismissing an idea based on vibes, and dismissing it because they've spent 3 years playing the game and know it inside and out. Just saying "that's daft" is not explicitly a negative, however it's incumbent on that poster to provide an explanation as to the push back rather just "because I say so".

Basically I don't mind if someone disagrees--it's more the matter of "how". If something is bad, I want to know the reasoning as to the why, because then a discussion can be had over what the issue is and how it could be fixed. If it's just personal opinion that's also fine, but it's also just that: personal opinion.

I also get the impression that sometimes users see mod suggestions, or the statement "It would be great as a mod, but not for the vanilla game" and end up taking such as an insult, when that's often not the case. In many cases the idea is cool but doesn't really fit with the vanilla game for whatever reason, so making it into a mod instead would still allow players to play with that mechanic if they choose, without changing the entire game experience for everyone else. Likewise sometimes the idea is cool and would be a good fit for the vanilla game, but the infrastructure to support it just isn't in the game yet, so in the meantime there's usually a mod or two that will cover that option until it gets added to the game(if it does).

In any case, when a lot of criticism seems to be lacking solid reasoning to support it and seems primarily rooted in emotion instead, it can get difficult to keep track of who's actually trying to have a discussion versus who's arguing in bad faith.

13 minutes ago, Zane Mordien said:

Always and I mean Always speak up. Just don't take it personal when people don't agree and don't get sucked into the spiral of trying to change someone's opinion because that will never happen. 

So much this.