handbag, sack, backpack durability

[Stroam]

This sparked a very lively debate on Discord so I thought I'd make a post here so ideas don't get lost. There are a few schools of thought on the subject. By adding durability to bags it creates an economy by adding a flow of materials into the game. It also opens up the usefulness of a leatherworking skill by providing the ability to increase bag durability or making more durable bags. All options have you lose slots based on durability. The thinking is the first slot loss would act as a warning that you need to repair your bags soon.

One idea is that the bags would wear out as you travel simulating average wear and tear. The first issue is on really long trips you'd need to bring spare bags in case the ones you were wearing start to wear out. The other issue is what to do with an item when the slot it's in gets disabled? Does the itemstack get dropped on the ground or does it wait till a slot frees up and then disables it?

The next idea is that durability would be subtracted to when items are removed from bags. That way there's a good chance a slot will be free when it needs to be disabled. It adds a new issue in that smaller bags wears out faster as you don't have the extra slots so the player ends up shuffling around items more often. Generally when you have smaller bags is when you can least afford to have them wear out. There is also the issue of stacks such that if you take half a stack out of a slot would it take durability damage or not?

The third idea, and my favorite, is bags only wear when overburdened. In this case, items would have weight and stacks would multiple this weight. If too much weight is in a bag it starts wearing out as time progresses. The more overburdened the bag is the faster it wears out and as it wears it starts to eventually disable item slots. I like this idea because you can shuffle items around to avoid overburdening your bags otherwise known as load balancing which I've done on many a hike. Smaller bags are less likely to get overburdened than bags with many slots due to their low capacity. It still has the issue of what to do with the itemstack when a slot becomes disabled but the great thing is if the itemstack simply drop to the ground it lightens the load and either slows down the durability loss or stops it depending if the lost weight stops it from being overburdened or not. Lastly, when transportation becomes a thing it'll encourage using the use of the appropriate containers to prevent overburdening.

The last idea is treating bags like armor and having it lose durability whenever the player receives damage. As slots were disabled the itemstack would drop to the ground simulating a hole poked into the bag.

 

Edited March 2, 2018 by Stroam

[Milo Christiansen]

There are better ways to stimulate an economy, for example armor wear.

Bag wear would just be annoying.

EDIT: For example, I often place items in certain locations in my inventory (corners are popular) as a way of keeping them sorted. Bag wear would compromise this ability. What if you travel a long way to gather a certain raw material. Do you need to spend precious inventory slots so some can wear away or so you can carry spare bags?

Edited March 1, 2018 by Milo Christiansen

[Stroam]

unless leather is required in metal armor and you get damaged often by mobs or the armor wears pretty quickly what amount of demand do you think that'll create balanced by the increase leather supply from less threating animals? Also what other renewable demands for leather or textiles?

EDIT: It entirely depends on what triggers the bags to wear. There are different options listed above. Three of them are not based on distance traveled so long distance travel wouldn't do anything. Currently in game I have 34 slots and I'd say most the time I could do without 12 of those slots since things like dirt, sticks, and stones are so common and abundant I don't need to lug that around. I also don't carry around equipment I don't need for the task at hand. For instance, when I come back from mining I put everything but food up and then grab what I need for the next activity.

Edited March 1, 2018 by Stroam

[HelDM]

Alright, my answer is twofold.

First off, considering bagspace is at such a premium I don't really like the idea of bags that wear out.

BUT! If it is implemented, I'd prefer the overburdened version.

Edited March 1, 2018 by HelDM

[redram]

I'd point out that there is always the option (and I'd say it's in fact likely) that *if* this gets implemented, it will only be in the Survival playstyle, as opposed to survive and build.  And, it needs to be easily adjustable by the player/server admin, so they can make container durability be higher or lower than 'default', or even infinite (no wear).  Players will have drastically different preferences for this kind of mechanic, and the default should appeal to the largest player base, but be adjustable.

That said, within this mechanic, from the top I don't like the slot-by-slot wear.  I want the entire bag to be available, or not.  My reason for this is that it's just a bit-by-bit annoyance to do it slot by slot.  I don't want to be constantly annoyed by repairs.  If it's all or nothing, I can still watch the durability, keep spares, swap them out when needed, and not be hassled by having to repair my bag every time I go get an inventory full of chalk.    I'd rather spend 4 leather once to get a whole new bag, than have to spend 1 leather 4 separate times to repair it.

Also, like Milo, I have certain areas of inventory I put certain things, and I'd rather not have that messed with every trip or two.

Instantly dropping items from inventory (whether 1 slot at a time or the entire) is bad.  If it happens in dangerous combat or parkour, you're just going to tick off the player.  I'd much rather see the slot(s) greyed out, the player can take the item(s) out, but not place new ones in.  This lets the player determine when to deal with the issue.

As far as durability damage, I lean towards item-moving, but movement based would work too, or even damage.  I think for item-moving, it's per individual item, not stack.  That avoids the quantity question.

Overburdening I don't like.  I don't like summed weight limits in general (whole 'nother topic), and this relies on that.   I also am not particularly interested in 'load shifting'.  Another annoyance for me.  The good thing about this method would be that weight capacity would be another container stat that could be altered by skilled craft, and altered at a very fine scale.

Edited March 1, 2018 by redram

[copygirl]

If a backpack has wear / durability, why only have one source of damage? Why can't they take damage from walking, from being full, from getting attacked? For the record when I think of backpacks in this way I don't think of how they're implemented currently, but rather in a way similar to Wearable Backpacks, where they're implemented as a wearable "armor" piece (replacing the chestplate slot) and block you can pick up and place. If they were implemented in TFC they'd probably take up the back slot, though.

When this was brought up in Discord, I suggested the downside of wearable inventory to only come into affect after an extended time of wearing them without taking care of keeping it in good shape. So for example, after 4 hours of playing, you'd lose 1 slot, after 2 more, another one, then another one the next hour, then 30 minutes, 15 minutes, ... I'm imagining this with a single backpack wearable the player would have equipped with more slots instead of the current 4 backpacks one can have with 6 slots each. The process of wear could be shown on the inventory slots, so you'd have an easy and clearly communicated way to see this.

Edited March 2, 2018 by copygirl

[tony Liberatto]

My first thought was, NO WAY, ARE THEY KIDDING? BAG DURABILITY? IS IT A JOKE? Then I read the whole post and started to consider the arguments and it's implications.

There is a difference between presenting a finished game with a feature and introducing new features to people that already play the game.

In this case, I believe every time we take something away from the players we also have to give them something else in return.

The way the game works right now, I believe most players completely bypass the flax cloth bag. After all, it is just easier to kill 4 goats than to farm and harvest that much flax.

All new players have a chock when they first start playing the game about how the inventory works. It is just too small for a game that encourages the player to explore.

I think if we get down to actually have a leather treating and manufacturing process that can make possible for players to develop a leatherworking skill we should have the maximum size increased to use all the slots that can fit in the inventory gui.

That said I think the best way to handle durability for an item that the player uses all the time is just to have an expiration date.

For example, The handbasket is a very weak material and does not have much durability. Maybe 10 in-game days.

The linen sac is more durable, so 30 days

the Leather backpack 3 months.

The item would need to show how long till it breaks. 

I do not like the idea of slowly removing slots, I think it adds an unnecessary annoyance to the game.

Making the items to last for a specific number of days already satisfies the intention of using more resources.

We could even have a warning system that would show up when the player opens the inventory. 

All items can be repaired at any time with proportional resources depending on the damage.

 

[Stroam]

The slot by slot annoyance I imagine going something like the first slot getting disabled at 50% durability and the last slot getting disabled at zero durability. With the other slots, if there are any, getting disabled closer to the last slot than the first. Something like: 1st at 50%, 2nd at 25%, 3rd at12.5%, .... , last at 0%. Very similar if not the same to how copygirl imagines it.

[copygirl]

4 hours ago, Stroam said:

The slot by slot annoyance I imagine going something like the first slot getting disabled at 50% durability and the last slot getting disabled at zero durability. With the other slots, if there are any, getting disabled closer to the last slot than the first. Something like: 1st at 50%, 2nd at 25%, 3rd at12.5%, .... , last at 0%. Very similar if not the same to how copygirl imagines it.

Heck, it doesn't have to be 50%. It could be 80%. The idea is to make the player aware of the lack of integrity through gameplay, actually requiring them to repair it before it breaks and disappears completely and instantly. I'm not a fan of warnings such as "you are hungry", "your equipment is about to break", ... That's not very immersive to me. Even if it's done in a non-intrusive way - It's the easy way out. Communicating wear and durability through gameplay elements, graphics and sounds is something I'd be after, personally.

And.. I will be a little controversion here. But what says "you need to repair this" better than an item falling out of your backpack? Assuming of course - and this is the difficult part - that the player is guaranteed to notice and realize why there's suddenly an item on the ground. I don't have a good answer to that at this time. Knowing that a majority of players likely would be against this design choice, I'm okay with this likely not ending up in the Vanilla game.

[heptagonrus]

Plain expiration date for wearable containers can be bad for servers where time goes on without you. Imagine you return next weekend and all your backpacks are dust

 

I would like to have a leather sink in the game, gives more tasks and reasons to play or trade. Ofc it should not be a hardcore burden on people.

I would prefer it with these highlights (i write backpack but mean all wearable containers):

• Decay is slow, so if you are going exploring you just make a new backpack and can be quite sure it will live through the journey.
• Easy way to replace old backpack with new so items automatically transferred, to avoid manual dragging of items between old/new/buffer containers.
• Decay is caused by time you wear the backpack. It should not decay when laying in container or hanging on toolrack.
  Ideally like in life it should take "damage" from all activities, like fighting, wetting (swimming), running, but to avoid VS becoming a backpack decay simulator, an aggregated average factor - time - is ok.
• Clear warning visualization: when backpack is near breaking point, its inv slots change color to yellow (or other visualization). When "broken" - they are red. Same about backpack icon itself.
• I don't like plain limitation in capacity when broken, this will be annoying and sometimes people will be caught after a long journey with extra items and no place to put them.
  The negative influence of the full decay should be like with MC anvils or tools - you can't use them any more but you don't loose anything except the broken item. No domino effect.
• The broken backpack should annoy player but still allow full functionality. And the annoyance should be controllable, it should appear only in known situations, not just randomly any time, player should be able to decide - should he/she risk spending some time now on this annoyance or it is better to postpone it.
  E.g. each time you take out or put an item in it, there is a chance that another its item will drop down. With a clear "drop" sound.
  Or maybe just opening inventory.
  When decay state is yellow - very low chance of one item dropping.
  When red - quite high chance and all items usually drop.
  So it will be uncomfortable to use such a backpack, but in the end you still can return home from journey with all gathered riches.
  Meh, one problem - items are automatically picked from the ground, so player only wastes time standing, doesn't have to replace them him/herself. Not much annoying.

Edited March 2, 2018 by heptagonrus

[Stroam]

We have different and more people in the community than when this was first discussed. I wonder what the current community would think of it.

[Domkrats]

I'm new at Vintage story.
Im playing in multiplayer server which has carry capacity mod on. That way my experience with storage is a little different than vanilla players have.
But before i joined multiplayer server i played a little solo.

At first i visualized human with four baskets on, so already i was a little sceptical about need to make four baskets to bring some stuff with you.
Then i was introduced to leather backpack, which made things a little bit logical. But then again - 4 backpacks seems strange. O.K. this is offtopic...

About duribility i have another idea. Maybe tool belt would be a good option (toolbelt would mean visible toolbar on screen bottom, where you can quickly acess items in it by scrolling mouse), which would have some durability because its used all the time. And in case of it braking all things in it would fall on ground (or moved to backpack automatically) forcing you to have everything in backpacks, and keeping you only with 2-3 slots in toolbar (what you are able to carry in hands) avaialble till you make home to make another toolbelt. That would seem more logical to me.

Backpacks braking doesn't seem so much a thing IRL. Yet all time being used pocket/toolbelt braking seems more logical.

P.S. Another idea that after braking you could still have full toolbar accesible, but changing from item to item would take more time, because (lets imagine) you would have to get them out of backpack to use.
 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Domkrats

[GhillieEilish]

No. Just, no. There's already enough stuff with durability. At least, not until repairing is added to the game...

[Silent Shadow]

I am generally in favor of durability loss for games like VS provided there are multiple paths to take (high initial capital investment, but lasts longer or is cheaper to make; or cheap capital investment, but breaks sooner or costs more time/stuff to make). Time is the most valuable resource to a VS player, so a progression to time saving methods would make for the best approach.

I do wish there were more sinks for leather. With durability loss, I would consider adding:

• Leather clothes that offer weather resistance. Rain or snow makes the player wet and lose their cold resistance (negate clothes' warmth bonus), but leather clothes would take longer to get the player wet. Obviously jumping into a pond would negate this. Prerequisite to enter the International Mr. Leather competition.
• Boots/shoes/sandals that give a small (~5-10%?) movement bonus
• Gloves that give a small calorie reduction when doing manual labor.
• Bellows and apron for the forge. Make the fire's temperature heat up faster, or control the forge's heat through pumping with higher temperatures needing more air (also provide the basis for more advanced smelting and forging mechanics like welding). Eventually mechanize the bellows for automated pumping. The Apron could give some benefit, perhaps reduced clothing wear while working near a workbench or anvil.
• Industrial belts for connecting axles. These belts were very common in the industrial revolution, and it would be nice to have another option to placing another axle and four gears to transfer power to an offset axis. Maybe incorporate a "slip" mechanic so that only so much power can be transmitted through it too.
• Have armor require some leather strips or something; usually that is how armor IRL was held together or at least to provide some ability to tighten the fit. Also for shields, then use leather over planks to make better shields.
• Snow shoes that restore a loss of movement speed on snowy tiles (make from strips and sticks).
• More furniture made with leather. Some nice leather upholstery on chairs would be appreciated, as would some leather covered, vellum books to make bookcases with (sandwich with planks).
• Harnesses/leads/saddles, for whenever animal husbandry is expanded upon.
• Make a tent for exploring. Make it offer some bonus heat so you can sleep outdoors without freezing or getting wet in the rain/snow.
• Trade goods/accessories you can use to barter with traders, like bands, belts, purses, etc. or just to wear if you like. Bonus trade value if you dye the leather too.
• Make sheaths for weapons and tools that reduce the loss of tool durability by a percentage (~5-10%?) at the cost of a tool belt slot (per tool/weapon?).
• If thirst is implemented as a mechanic, add water skins as an option to flasks/bottles (carry boiled/purified water around instead of drinking nasty pond water).

If you want to make leather working more involved than a processing step could be added where fat could be used to waterproof it (similar to making cured pelts, but after tanning), which would be nice for clothes. Chromium could also get a use for tanning in place of alum/limestone as well.

Edited January 28, 2022 by Silent Shadow
Clarify argument.

[Geostriker]

I was just pondering the usefulness of sheaths for tools i would gladly give up a slot on the character screen for a sheath that could hold a specific tool and having a sheath for most tools would give leather more use as well as free up a slot on the hot-bar when the tool in question isn't in use.