williams_482 Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 The random break mechanic for quenching is sure to be frustrating in game, but it's also not particularly realistic? It's possible to crack a steel work piece while quenching it, but an experienced blacksmith should be able to reduce this risk to almost nothing if they quench a properly made item at the right temperature in the correct quenching medium.
Vexxvididu Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 6 minutes ago, williams_482 said: The random break mechanic for quenching is sure to be frustrating in game, but it's also not particularly realistic? It's possible to crack a steel work piece while quenching it, but an experienced blacksmith should be able to reduce this risk to almost nothing if they quench a properly made item at the right temperature in the correct quenching medium. Yes, and the patch notes said you could reduce the odds of a quench crack by tempering it. It's also worth noting that ONLY carbon steels harden with a quench in the real world. Quenching bronze or wrought iron will not harden it. And some allows are even quenched as part of the annealing process.
CastIronFabric Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 (edited) 2 hours ago, jerjerje said: There is no logical reason you couldn't hammer iron and steel into a spear, so it makes sense to add them. Unfortunately, game balance is a thing that must be respected. The devs felt that iron and steel spears would have been too powerful, so either they never add iron and steel spears (and there are constant complaints and suggestions about them) or the devs add them, but nerf the previous spears (might cause temporary complaints when this one update comes out). Personally, the nerf for previous tiers seems like the best choice. I think we are all getting WAY ahead of ourselves. The balance I am sure is subject to change during the rc phase, that is in part the entire point of a 'early access' approach. I think its best to wait until playing the rc and see how the balance feels before making decisions on very nuanced changes Edited February 6 by CastIronFabric
MKMoose Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 2 hours ago, jerjerje said: There is no logical reason you couldn't hammer iron and steel into a spear, so it makes sense to add them. Unfortunately, game balance is a thing that must be respected. The devs felt that iron and steel spears would have been too powerful, so either they never add iron and steel spears (and there are constant complaints and suggestions about them) or the devs add them, but nerf the previous spears (might cause temporary complaints when this one update comes out). Personally, the nerf for previous tiers seems like the best choice. 8 hours ago, Dilan Rona said: Since were getting iron spears, it makes sense they would nerf the other spears a bit so as to not overpower the iron spears. Tier wise, they would be the best, so the others need to be scaled the same way they scaled the other weapons. Do note that the spear changes go beyond simply making space for iron and steel. The new steel spears have notably lower thrown damage than bronze in the current stable. Even Stone Age spears were significantly nerfed (arguably even more so than copper and bronze). Ergo, making iron and steel balanced is not the only motivation behind these changes. And even once we settle on spears being nerfed, I believe that the specific way they've been changed is detrimental to the game and reinforces complaints about the combat being spammy and weightless. Making them slower but retaining damage from the current stable or even increasing it would make them much more enjoyable to use. 7 minutes ago, williams_482 said: The random break mechanic for quenching is sure to be frustrating in game, but it's also not particularly realistic? It's possible to crack a steel work piece while quenching it, but an experienced blacksmith should be able to reduce this risk to almost nothing if they quench a properly made item at the right temperature in the correct quenching medium. Was thinking the same. Game balancing seems like a fairly reasonable explanation, though, because otherwise there could be no reason not to quench everything as many times as possible besides initial setup time and then fuel costs (and maybe quenching medium costs if it's not water). Also, first quenching doesn't seem to have any shatter chance.
Dilan Rona Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Irulana said: It will be annoying in multiplayer when you are blacksmith for village and you need to make 5 shovel, 6 pickaxes etc. You friends are having fun exploring and you stuck in base Actually that is a role play I would love. Blacksmith, chef, and farmer, and making sure the hard working players always have enough food, and their gear is repaired. For me that would be fun.
Dilan Rona Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 Also as others have said, this is a pre release, and the first one at that. So a lot of things will change before the final version is released. 1
LadyWYT Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Dilan Rona said: Actually that is a role play I would love. Blacksmith, chef, and farmer, and making sure the hard working players always have enough food, and their gear is repaired. For me that would be fun. Sometimes this is me. Sometimes I don't want to go off exploring and just want to chill out at base. Sometimes that is due to me primarily taking the reins on exploration and foraging, so I take a break and let my hunter friend go take care of it. But my point is that yeah, staying behind at base while friends go off and do stuff isn't always the worst thing in the world. 1
williams_482 Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 3 hours ago, MKMoose said: Was thinking the same. Game balancing seems like a fairly reasonable explanation, though, because otherwise there could be no reason not to quench everything as many times as possible besides initial setup time and then fuel costs (and maybe quenching medium costs if it's not water). Also, first quenching doesn't seem to have any shatter chance. If this is an added cost to second, third, etc quenches I'm less bothered from a gameplay perspective, but still not thrilled. It means extra quenches are a decision with a cost tradeoff which is good, but it's an annoying way to make the best gear more expensive. I think I'd prefer a system with a persistent increase in time/material cost, or something that trades durability for power (or dig speed, on a tool) instead of being a straight upgrade. 1
Dilan Rona Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 Its an initial mechanic, and bound to change as they get back feedback. Wait for the final release version when its more locked down.
Thorfinn Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 4 hours ago, jerjerje said: The devs felt that iron and steel spears would have been too powerful, so either they never add iron and steel spears (and there are constant complaints and suggestions about them) or the devs add them, but nerf the previous spears (might cause temporary complaints when this one update comes out). Personally, the nerf for previous tiers seems like the best choice. Truth. I think what I would have done is drop the stone spears by 1, and narrowed the gap between the metal spears, particularly between copper and bronze. There is already a huge benefit to bronze in terms of durability, it really didn't need a 1.75 boost over copper. I'd have put at least a full point between flint and copper -- at the moment, it's really hard to justify wasting time and material on copper spears. 2
Dilan Rona Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 Unless I plan copper spearheads or find one in ruins or pottery, I myself don't bother much with copper spears. Or anything copper for that matter unless absolutely necessary. And mostly for nails and strips only. 1
MKMoose Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 1 hour ago, Thorfinn said: Truth. I think what I would have done is drop the stone spears by 1, and narrowed the gap between the metal spears, particularly between copper and bronze. There is already a huge benefit to bronze in terms of durability, it really didn't need a 1.75 boost over copper. I'd have put at least a full point between flint and copper -- at the moment, it's really hard to justify wasting time and material on copper spears. They've actually done quite a lot of what you're recommending, besides the matter of Stone Age spears. Overall kind of makes me hopeful that they know what they are doing, even if I would prefer them to take a different direction with higher damage and lower frequency of attacks. In terms of raw damage, the progression is now much smoother than it used to be, with gaps of 1 damage point between flint, copper and bronze. That said, tin or black bronze is still extremely valuable due to the breakpoints on common 5 HP and 15 HP targets, so copper spears remain mostly a waste of material. damageByType: { "*-granite": 2.5 (4 on the current stable), // only one-taps chickens and small fish "*-flint": 3.25 (5), // one-taps hares "*-copper": 4.25 (5.75), // one-taps some medium fish "*-tinbronze": 5.25 (7.5), // one-taps foxes and raccoons, 3-taps pigs and wolves "*-iron": 6 (8.25), // one-taps pudu deer and some medium-large fish "*-meteoriciron": 6.1, // two-taps T0 drifters "*-steel": 6.2 // no notable breakpoints },
Thorfinn Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 That's cool, @MKMoose. I've been fiddling around with spears in 1.22, and, if you can't find flint, bears are a serious problem. Sure you can take them, but you can't be sloppy. Every action has to be pretty much nuts-on, as you have to dodge and fight for about twice as long. Flint, obviously, is a little harder than regular stone used to be. Not awful, no, but I wouldn't expect most players are able to grab a bunch of flint spears and go give grizzlies a spanking. Which they kind of have to at the beginning of the game. Either that or be good at movement, which is also not a given for new players. I could certainly live with that, though I would still prefer a wider gap between stone and copper, and a narrower one between copper and bronze. Give us a reason to bother with copper, and make bronze less of a no-brainer. 3
Ravensblade Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 (edited) 2 hours ago, Thorfinn said: Truth. I think what I would have done is drop the stone spears by 1, and narrowed the gap between the metal spears, particularly between copper and bronze. There is already a huge benefit to bronze in terms of durability, it really didn't need a 1.75 boost over copper. I'd have put at least a full point between flint and copper -- at the moment, it's really hard to justify wasting time and material on copper spears. That would be also be realistic. If i remember correctly civilizations on copper stage still used flint and bones in stuff like spears, knifes etc until bronze was discovered. Copper is just to soft for most tools. A deer antlers pickaxes were historically used, but i understand that it would make much more harder progression then a copper. I don't know how useful in reality copper pickaxe would be. But i would also welcome more possibilities for tools from bones. @MKMoose So in 1.22 you can still hunt fish with spear effectively? Or throwing from same distance? I was afraid it would be fishing rod only. Edited February 6 by Ravensblade 2
Maelstrom Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 On 2/5/2026 at 12:12 PM, LadyWYT said: Didn't know ice elevators were a thing, but I mean...ice only lingers where it's cold enough. If an ice block is placed in warm temperatures, it stands to reason that it would melt. Mischief of Mice found that a water shaft surrounded in ice was a very quick way to travel. Second only to the raft elevator, which is exponentially faster than the water/ice elevator.
MKMoose Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 3 hours ago, williams_482 said: I think I'd prefer [...] something that trades durability for power (or dig speed, on a tool) instead of being a straight upgrade. Note that sharpening using the grinding wheel pretty much does this, currently only for the falxes and swords as far as I can tell but hopefully more in near future. Sharpening the weapons increases critical hit chance (chance to deal double damage) at the cost of a small amount of durability. The difference is too small to make any big impact in most cases (I think it's capped at +10% critical hit chance, equivalent to +10% DPS even assuming no overflow damage). The durability loss means (as far as I can tell) that you will generally be dealing very slightly less total damage per amount of metal used, though it seems to be a bit more worthwhile on higher weapon tiers due to smaller relative durability loss. 6 minutes ago, Ravensblade said: So in 1.22 you can still hunt fish with spear effectively? Or throwing from same distance? I was afraid it would be fishing rod only. Well, throwing is less effective, and some larger fish might be difficult or impossible to one-shot. They now also try to escape more quickly when you scare them. An additional limiting factor might be simply the quantity of fish, because I actually couldn't find any in the wild and had to spawn some for testing. It's technically possible, but I don't yet know if it will be practically viable.
LadyWYT Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 19 minutes ago, MKMoose said: Sharpening the weapons increases critical hit chance (chance to deal double damage) at the cost of a small amount of durability. The difference is too small to make any big impact in most cases (I think it's capped at +10% critical hit chance, equivalent to +10% DPS even assuming no overflow damage). The durability loss means (as far as I can tell) that you will generally be dealing very slightly less total damage per amount of metal used, though it seems to be a bit more worthwhile on higher weapon tiers due to smaller relative durability loss. I'm thinking it's a feature that will be very useful for Blackguards, but that remains to be seen. Really looking forward to testing it but...kinda need the metalcasting and whatnot to be fixed first. As well as the critical hit crashing, which seems to be a thing. Currently the spears are what's throwing me. The damage still feels okay so far, but the windup on throwing them feels a bit slower, and the range seems a bit shorter than before so the spears feel like heavier weapons overall. I'm also wondering if creature hitboxes and behavior in general have been adjusted. The wildlife has been a bit more unpredictable as to whether the creature will run away or try to fight. I killed a fox with two melee hits from a flint spear, when I'm pretty sure it took more hits than that before. Likewise, I encountered a couple of wolves, and while I survived easily enough thanks to fast reflexes it felt there were at least of couple of wolf attacks that should have landed in 1.21, that did not land this time. Could be a bug, but it could just be that some things were adjusted behind the scenes. 1
Michael Gates Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 I do wonder how we're going to get <wood type> ladders, when wood ladders are made out of sticks? Are ladders going to be made of planks, and thus gated behind saws now? I really hope not; gathering four full stacks of reeds to make a single rope ladder for Baby's First Mine is very time-consuming.
LadyWYT Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 2 minutes ago, Michael Gates said: I do wonder how we're going to get <wood type> ladders, when wood ladders are made out of sticks? Are ladders going to be made of planks, and thus gated behind saws now? Regular ladders have always required planks for their construction, to my knowledge. Rope ladders, on the other hand, can be crafted from rope and sticks. So I would imagine making wood-typed ladders is as easy as just requiring all the planks to be the same type of wood.
Michael Gates Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 2 minutes ago, LadyWYT said: Regular ladders have always required planks for their construction, to my knowledge. *looks* ah. There are TWO recipes for wood ladder; one with planks for the sides, and one that's all sticks. If they keep both, that means we'll have both typed ladders and "wood," and I'll have to think of something funny to do with 'em. It should be possible to do "Snakes and Ladders" with a cliff face, some ladders, and ooh, water source blocks would be good... 1
MKMoose Posted February 6 Report Posted February 6 (edited) 34 minutes ago, LadyWYT said: As well as the critical hit crashing, which seems to be a thing. It's not a thing as far as I can tell, but I got a different crash with the same stack trace. 34 minutes ago, LadyWYT said: I killed a fox with two melee hits from a flint spear, when I'm pretty sure it took more hits than that before. Shouldn't happen, unless the fox was damaged by something else, since a flint spear has 2 damage and the fox has 5 HP. If it actually died in two hits from full health, then you've got another bug to report. Edited February 6 by MKMoose
Thorfinn Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 41 minutes ago, MKMoose said: Shouldn't happen, unless the fox was damaged by something else, since a flint spear has 2 damage and the fox has 5 HP. Doesn't Blackguard get a damage buff? Is anyone else getting the feeling its a whole lot harder to aggro wolves and bears? Even boars seem to aggro more than wolves.
LadyWYT Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 40 minutes ago, MKMoose said: Shouldn't happen, unless the fox was damaged by something else, since a flint spear has 2 damage and the fox has 5 HP. If it actually died in two hits from full health, then you've got another bug to report. Maybe. To my knowledge the fox hadn't been damaged. I'm pretty sure that the spear was flint, but it could have been my obsidian spear given that I have access to obsidian on my current map. The Blackguard melee bonus might be enough to kill in two hits. Just now, Thorfinn said: Doesn't Blackguard get a damage buff? They do, was just mentioning that. Just now, Thorfinn said: Is anyone else getting the feeling its a whole lot harder to aggro wolves and bears? Even boars seem to aggro more than wolves. I think there may have been some adjustments somewhere in the code. Boars(not sows) may aggro even if no piglets are around, if the player gets too close, but I'm not sure. Wolves and bears I'm also not sure about; wolves will attack if you get too close, but the attacks don't seem to land as frequently as they did in 1.21 and the wolves also seem to be inclined to flee as much as they are inclined to fight. Perhaps the threshold for retreat has been raised, so they have a chance to flee prior to being critically injured?
Thorfinn Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 (edited) 26 minutes ago, LadyWYT said: Boars(not sows) may aggro even if no piglets are around, if the player gets too close, but I'm not sure. They sure do. There's a few wolves I've walked right up to petting distance. Yes, one of them aggroed eventually, another fled, the rest just watched me back away. I've had to toss rocks at a few brown bears to get them to attack. Just seems there's a fraction of the critters (other than boars) that are more docile. [EDIT] Haven't checked, and don't intend to until I think I understand it, but I wonder if maybe they have to be hungry now. Used to be they had to be hungry to chase chickens and sheep, but not seraphs. Edited February 7 by Thorfinn
LadyWYT Posted February 7 Report Posted February 7 2 minutes ago, Thorfinn said: They sure do. There's a few wolves I've walked right up to petting distance. Yes, one of them aggroed eventually, another fled, the rest just watched me back away. I've had to toss rocks at a few brown bears to get them to attack. Just seems there's a fraction of the critters (other than boars) that are more docile. Assuming it is intended creature behavior and not the result of a bug, I'm wondering how it will affect the playerbase at large. If creatures aren't immediately aggressive, I would think there would be fewer player deaths. However, if wildlife is more unpredictable, I could also see more player deaths happening due to players getting complacent around the wild creatures. The footsteps are a nice touch, as are the idle bear noises, though the former seems a little too quiet currently to be very useful for detecting nearby creatures. 1
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