The "Minecraft-clone" problem

[Erik]

The "big marketing push" happened and while it probably doubled the player count, it wasn't hugely successful, only animating four moderately big youtube channels to create videos. I suspect the increase in sales is only temporary and will drop of after a while.

But why is this the case? Why didn't more channels make videos of the game?

The comment sections of the new videos provide a clear answer: "This is just a Minecraft clone/copy, I can do this with mods"

While it is quite harsh critique, it holds some truth. The first impression of this game is far to similar to Minecraft:

• Similar artstyle
• Similar stack/slot based inventory system, even with offhand
• Similar 256 block height world gen
• Similar trees and plants
• Similar stats: health and hunger
• Similar crafting: 3 by 3 grid
• Similar bad combat
• Similar crafting stations: Campfire = Furnace
• Similar premise: Monsters appear at night 

It's not like there aren't things that make VS different from Minecraft, but they are often overlooked and overshadowed by the first impression. Even when considering the new things the vast majority have been done or are doable in a similar fashion with mods for Minecraft. The reason why it is so similar is because Vintage Story is a Minecraft mod turned standalone.

What has had most people interested were the unique crafting mechanics, because they truly were something new and original. But the mechanics are admittedly, while visually impressing, very shallow and repetitive, which has also been often brought up in the comments of the new videos.

So how can we fix all this?

Changing the artstyle is something way too time consuming with no gameplay benefits for existing player, so that is out of question, however the other points are things that can be done:

• Making the inventory system weight based, rather than stack/slot based
• Utilizing cubic chunks, having a nearly infinite world height and impressive terrain
• Making trees less blocky, more dynamic
• Adding thirst and stamina
• Replacing the crafting grid
• Improving combat, adding depth
• Reworking the campfire to be more unique and GUI-less
• Focusing on GUI-less blocks, removing GUI from exiting blocks
• Making existing unique crafting less repetitive and adding more depth

The problem is that all these changes take a lot of time to implement, some aren't even designed yet, and we only have Tyron who can code those things. I imagine the most effective changes would be the infinite world height, weight based inventory and GUI-less blocks as they are something that is not really possible in Minecraft, even with mods. Even then, these changes would sadly take a lot of time, which could be spend on new features, but having these changes implemented later makes their implementation even more difficult.

[Tyron]

I think a well done trailer that almost only emphasizes on the differences would go a long way already

[Erik]

1 hour ago, Tyron said:

I think a well done trailer that almost only emphasizes on the differences would go a long way already

While it would certainly help, it would still not prevent comments like "This can be done in Minecraft with mods" or "This is just a Terrafirmacraft ripoff". Especially with Hytale coming closer to release, there need to be some unique stand out features, so it can compete against it. Hytale is going to have a standard world height of over 256 blocks, probably 512 and while VS has a configurable world height, anything above the standard height takes ages to generate and is unplayable to the way world generation only scales vertically.

I really want VS to succeed, but the current situation worries me, as the length time it took to release the last update and the lack of some essential features in it (world configuration screen, configurable climate, oceans/landform size) shows, that VS needs more coders and thus more money to hire them.

[redram]

Having watched like 16 hours of Dakphan's series so far, I can say that at least certain people are also impressed when they see the multiple container thing, how easy it is to load mods, and just generally the very well thought out nature of the game.  Small details like skipping stones attract notice.   Longer streams like Darkphan's allow people to see the very large amount of small qol things that make the game superior.  It also gets better as Dark learns all the little tricks like waypoints.  Personally I think that perhaps the most bang for the buck in terms of near term updates would be getting an animal-powered automation system going for the early game.   People love animals, and love automation.  A non-redstone automation system will help set us apart a lot. 

My other choice would be an immersive armor/clothes construction system.   I don't see 'getting rid of the grid' as a pressing goal.  it's very tricky for mass-made things like building materials.  As long as we create immersive methods where it makes sense, I think people will remember those, and forget about the simpler grid stuff.

I don't think the game is ever going to get past the first impression minecraft clone thing because it's a blocky game.  It just looks the same at first glance, period.    But the more other cool features, the quicker people will be able to recognize that it's not the same.

Edit: As for hytale, it's just not the same game.   Hytale has dozens of people on staff.  That's hard to compete with directly.   Hytale also fully embraces fantasy in a way VS probably never will.  Between these things, they're always going to have more mobs.  The weakness of both minecraft and Hytale is that they have to appeal to the hugest, dullest common denominator.  VS can choose to appeal to more detail oriented crowd.  The details are what will shine.  So more details is I think better than going back and trying to re-work old stuff.

Edited May 15, 2019 by redram

[Erik]

26 minutes ago, redram said:

Having watched like 16 hours of Dakphan's series so far, I can say that at least certain people are also impressed when they see the multiple container thing, how easy it is to load mods, and just generally the very well thought out nature of the game.  Small details like skipping stones attract notice.   Longer streams like Darkphan's allow people to see the very large amount of small qol things that make the game superior.  It also gets better as Dark learns all the little tricks like waypoints. 

The problem is that most people today have a very short attention span, so they will watch three minutes and then form their opinion of the game. These players don't get to see most differences from Minecraft, but all the similarities. And most people also mod QoL things into MC, so they are no huge benefit to them.

29 minutes ago, redram said:

Personally I think that perhaps the most bang for the buck in terms of near term updates would be getting an animal-powered automation system going for the early game.   People love animals, and love automation.  A non-redstone automation system will help set us apart a lot. 

That is certainly something I want to see, but as it is more of a midgame thing, it won't be visible in the first impression of the game for many players. It is not a pressing matter, so it may be better to implement it later.

34 minutes ago, redram said:

I don't see 'getting rid of the grid' as a pressing goal.  it's very tricky for mass-made things like building materials.  As long as we create immersive methods where it makes sense, I think people will remember those, and forget about the simpler grid stuff.

For me the grid crafting feels rather out of place compared to the other crafting mechanics, it's just there to remind people it is in fact a Minecraft clone. Other than that, having to look up the recipes for it is also a drawback.

38 minutes ago, redram said:

I don't think the game is ever going to get past the first impression minecraft clone thing because it's a blocky game.  It just looks the same at first glance, period.    But the more other cool features, the quicker people will be able to recognize that it's not the same.

Maybe not, but it at least should try. I imagine the reason why so many youtubers haven't made videos about it, is because it is too similar to Minecraft and there are little mayor improvements, just different features and graphics. I think we need at least on "WOW-feature" that VS has against the competition and I think that would be utilizing cubic chunks to generate impressive world gen, like huge mountains.

45 minutes ago, redram said:

Edit: As for hytale, it's just not the same game.   Hytale has dozens of people on staff.  That's hard to compete with directly.   Hytale also fully embraces fantasy in a way VS probably never will.  Between these things, they're always going to have more mobs.  The weakness of both minecraft and Hytale is that they have to appeal to the hugest, dullest common denominator.  VS can choose to appeal to more detail oriented crowd.  The details are what will shine.  So more details is I think better than going back and trying to re-work old stuff.

Sure, Hytale has a different focus, being more of a fantasy RPG. But Hytale succeeds to set itself apart from Minecraft and is a direct competitor for parts of the playerbase of VS. In the absolute worst case, Hytale is vastly better on the core features of a voxel game and people mod VS's features into it, making VS redundant.

Details are nice, but Minecraft also has many details. Details just don't sell the game, as marketing 1 big feature/improvement is much more effective than marketing 100 small details.

[Tyron]

I also have to work with literally a hundred times smaller or 1% of the budget that Hytale has :<

[Edit:]
Anyhow, several of your initial suggestions can easily take hundreds of hours of efforts, I think there's more cost effective ways to make the game stand apart. Also depends of course how they'd be implemented, but if its on the same level of quality as previous content it would take a long time. 

I know its tempting to find something to silence the critics, but I'm personally less worried about that and just really want to make a great game. I'd rather pick up the most interesting ideas from this forum than the ones most likely to set us apart from MC.

But thanks for the suggestions either way!

[copygirl]

I'd say I agree with Erik's assessment of the game's shortcomings. I don't think being "less like Minecraft" is necessarily what's important, but rather "more like a proper game". Minecraft has set a bunch of standards for sandbox bloxel games, some of which are simply not good game design. It would be worth revisiting the basics to create an experience that is more concise and immersive. (I really do like the term "immersive".)

I'm looking forward to people from the community writing mods to explore these aspects. I've been thinking, perhaps Tyron might be interested in taking over these ideas if they're indeed successful and implementing them into the game proper, or suggesting these mods as enhancing the default Vanilla play-style. The night is still young!

Edited May 15, 2019 by copygirl

[dakko]

21 hours ago, Erik said:

The problem is that most people today have a very short attention span, so they will watch three minutes and then form their opinion of the game.

For one channel, it isn't that most people today have very short attention spans, it is (I believe) the mindset of the viewers. There is a very loud (and aggressive) group that has an intolerance for anything outside of their immediate interest. I doubt they would even look at the game before giving their expert opinion on how this is just MC.

eta: and this is based on comments to an Ark Survival LP, where there was very hateful and aggressive demands to do MC

Edited May 16, 2019 by dakko

[David Spake]

On 5/15/2019 at 11:50 AM, redram said:

Edit: As for hytale, it's just not the same game.   Hytale has dozens of people on staff.  That's hard to compete with directly.   Hytale also fully embraces fantasy in a way VS probably never will.  Between these things, they're always going to have more mobs.  The weakness of both minecraft and Hytale is that they have to appeal to the hugest, dullest common denominator.  VS can choose to appeal to more detail oriented crowd.  The details are what will shine.  So more details is I think better than going back and trying to re-work old stuff.

I agree completely with the regards to MC and Hytale aiming for the broadest player base.  If you can do it, it works well (as far as that goes), but there aren't many OF ANYTHING that achieves that goal.  Heck, WoW is a prime example; 15 years after release you still you hear people say "it's a WoW clone" when talking about a new MMO.  The result was a decade of companies chasing that elusive "WoW killer" title, and generalizing their games as much as possible to the detriment of players looking for something with more flavor and depth.

Fortunately it seems the industry is shaking that off, and realized that a great, enjoyable and profitable product is possible without targeting trillions of users.  Personally I see a lot of promise in games like VS and  RimWorld (perhaps Pantheon Rise of the Fallen; we'll see).  Beautiful, detailed and deep product that do not aim for the most generalized experience, knowing full well they are targeting a particular subset of the overall gaming audience.  Personally I am very glad to support them fully, and I just hope others value it too. 

 

[AlexUbel]

The biggest issue that I see right off the bat, is that it just looks like a stand alone version of TerraFirmaCraft. There isn't anything it is currently doing different than that mod that I can see. That is just based off the features I have read about, and the videos I have watched. Nothing has convinced me that it is something I would want to purchase however.

[Stardog765]

Interesting thread and I can totally see the issue. 

Having just bought the game last week and now having some times in it I love it. I certainly love MC too but this to me feels like a more thoughtful and adult MC-like game.  There are many differences but I can see how that is first thing someone sees when looking at this game for the first time.

Personally I think this game could shine in another way too and in doing so it would appeal to a whole different group of players.
Along with MC I am also a HUGE fan of the farming games, Stardew, old Harvest Moon games and all the like.  I am an older gamer but my son got me addicted to Harvest Moon games back when I was raising him, sitting on the couch playing on Gameboy!

This game already has a much more involved farming system than MC and I think that is an aspect of the game that could really be built upon, maybe not like those games I mentioned but if done properly it could appeal to that huge group of players who love those games.

Things I would do if I wanted to expand farming in that way would be:

1. Expand the number of crops even more. Its already impressive for a game such as this but more is always better. Not too much but some more would be great.

2. When seasons come to the game, I think I read seasons are coming at least I hope so! If we get seasons there could be seasons specific crops.

3. Like the traders in the game maybe add farming traders that trade all sorts of seeds or special farming tools for payments of different types of produce that the player grows.  Maybe traveling traders. That would be cool too. Traders that move around the map.

4. Not technically farming but it goes with it, expand beekeeping more if there is something that makes sense to expand upon.

5. And last but not least would love to see brewing added to the game. Honey mead, beer, ale, wines.  That would be really cool and maybe have a chance of some interesting random effects on brews that you make that you can share with other players.

Anyway just come ideas that came to mind as I am learning this great game. I really really like what I see so far and very much want to see this game succeed and shine as its own special game not just a cool game kind of like another game everyone knows.  In my humble opinion expanding the direction of the game in those kinds of areas would open it up to a whole new group of players that love farming type games.

Thank you for taking the time to read.

 

 

[Yukihira_S]

Some ideas to make the game different and perhaps more interesting than minecraft:

1. Enphasize the survival aspect by introducing stats like fatigue, thirst, hot/cold and so on.

2. Introducing afflictions like infections, common cold, psychic traumas and some kind of immersive way to heal them. (I'm thinking about the survival visor of metal gear 3 in this moment) 

3. I also vote for the weight based inventory and since it will inevitably reduce the carry capability more "stuffs on the ground" solutions should be inplemented. In particular, I'm thinking about storing bulk materials like rocks, ore nuggets or seeds in bags that can be either let on the ground without despawn, hung on trees (to prevent animals to destroy them if full of food) or combined with a frame made of sticks in order to make a Yukon pack.

[Feone Varen]

Having played about 7 hours here (and looking forward to more!), and many hundreds on variations of Minecraft & it's mods the main thing I'd love to see a different take on is mob spawning.

Less: "Oh look another surprise wolf (almost) got me, I bet there's another behind the next hill, oh no it's getting dark better find a spot to wait for day."

More: "The wolves came to my camp to turn me into a sandwich so I made spears, went to the forest, found their den, took the high ground, turned the wolf pack into porcupines, and now all your trees (and a fancy wolf cape) are belong to me!"

 

 

 

[Drago]

Some sort of seed (map seed) bound macanic like the mod intangible did in minecraft. This will change the game slightly each time someone plays. An example could be that you make bear with 2 potatoes and 1 carrot to get one effect on one map but on the next map you need 3 carrots and 1 potato to get the same effect 

[ThreeHeadedDingo]

IMO this problem isn't a problem. It's only a problem with people who don't understand the game, oversimplifying what it is. TerraFirmaCraft will forever be bound by the inherent limitations in Minecraft, and since Minecraft almost never evolves under the hood, TFC will forever be hamstrung and marred with Minecraft's deep engine flaws. The game can't even keep up with other versions of itself - Minecraft for Windows 10 runs substantially faster at drastically higher draw distances and implements all the same features.

When I heard about Vintage Story, I bought it almost instantly because I knew the implications of a standalone game based roughly on TFC, made in C#, with mod support (many people forget, Minecraft to this day doesn't actually support mods - all mods require interim jar hacks/injections, like Forge or Bukkit, a mess that splinters the player base). It runs better, it looks better, it plays better, and it's gotten more attention to detail in less than a year than Minecraft still has in a decade.

I also need to emphasize that the marketing push was positive, despite the negative "it's a clone" responses - I bought the game because of it, I then convinced a friend to buy it, and I may have convinced yet another person to be buying it soon. As a programmer, I recognize good, well thought out game design, and I want to make sure it's rewarded so it doesn't go away. I'll do a lot to make sure this game doesn't go away - it's way too promising.

[MasterDeeJay]

What makes minecraft is look like minecraft?

the cubes 

I know it wasnt the first voxel game but the first thing is about minecraft is the cubes

What if we replace the cubes to normal realistic look shapes

like the NoCubes mod https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/nocubes

Or like the game: 7DaystoDie

 

 

[DrTenabrae]

That nocubes mod is basically applying the "marching cubes" technique... which can result in some very odd results. I'm not entirely against it, but one of the issues with something like that is you never know what result you're going to get at runtime, and you have to distinguish which blocks will be affected by it. You dont want a player's sexily crafted altar to become a blocky marble hillock.

Voxels are so ubiquitous now that I dont think 'voxel game' means 'minecraft' anymore... it's the whole thing... 3d voxel building game = minecraft even though it really shouldn't... space engineers is a 3d voxel building building game but no one would say it's 'minecraft in space'

[MasterDeeJay]

On 10/27/2019 at 2:03 AM, DrTenabrae said:

That nocubes mod is basically applying the "marching cubes" technique... which can result in some very odd results. I'm not entirely against it, but one of the issues with something like that is you never know what result you're going to get at runtime, and you have to distinguish which blocks will be affected by it. You dont want a player's sexily crafted altar to become a blocky marble hillock.

Voxels are so ubiquitous now that I dont think 'voxel game' means 'minecraft' anymore... it's the whole thing... 3d voxel building game = minecraft even though it really shouldn't... space engineers is a 3d voxel building building game but no one would say it's 'minecraft in space'

In the game 7 days to die it is works almost good. The players buliding only solid blocks (wood, iron, bricks...) that is not affected. It is difficult to build with dirt, snow. (like not possible to build a dirt shelter) and the blocks has stablity (Structural Integrity), weight and affected by gravity. It is a complex system, sometimes slow and heavy on cpu/ram but it works. (not 100 percent)

[DrTenabrae]

@Jozsef Drum - Yeah The digging in 7DTD is pretty satisfying (or at least still was back in a12 or so last time I checked in on it). Ive played a few games using that technique... which is basically metaballs between vertices in the world. You get those odd tiny bits floating in the air sometimes but for the most part it looks and 'feels' good.

 

[David Taylor]

Perhaps there's been another marketing push? I saw the psj videos recently and they piqued my interest enough to buy it.

I thought psj had given up on it after only two vids but I just looked and he's uploaded another one so that's good. He's good at bringing games alive. And that seems to be vital for this game.

I went looking for other lets plays for this game and the thing I've noticed is that unless the author is quite good they're deadly boring. The beginning of the game is such a grind that you really need someone who can inject life into it to make it watchable. I skipped through a video last night that was entirely some guy digging out a trench to try and lure a bore into a stockade. I kept going a few minutes ahead and that's really all it was - just digging a dirt trench. He didn't even really explain why he was doing it... I got what he was doing because I'd done something similar to get a couple of sheep that fell into a trap around my garden into a pen the other day.

Mischief of Mice had a good one, it's fun to watch.

It could be this game is particularly difficult make into an engaging lets play because progression takes so long. The hours required for progress that then get compressed into an interesting 20 - 40 minutes of video might make it not worth a youtuber's time. Perhaps the audience is tricky too. MC has a large young player base where the hermits can be shouty and get up to their crazy antics (I can't stand HermitCraft and really hope my favourite MC youtubers don't join) whereas kids aren't going to play VS so the tone of the vids has to be different and have a smaller audience to boot.

The similarities to MC are obvious and quite striking but that isn't necessarily a problem. MC is what it is and it isn't too difficult to see VS has significant gameplay differences. I think MC is struggling for new content and unless you want to go all out with modding it's getting pretty samey. The nether update for me was "meh", and the bees one was too... you can tell with how the youtubers were all "OMG I found some BEES, this is so awesome, they're so cute, this is AMAZING".... really?

MC has turned into more of a puzzle game for want of a better phrase. It's really about tearing through the early stages to get to redstone and then making the auto farms, and then what? Start over again.

If you could get wattles or pixelriffs do to a lets play it might have an impact. But the time required per video might make them shy away from it.

[Tails]

On 5/15/2019 at 2:01 PM, Tyron said:

I know its tempting to find something to silence the critics, but I'm personally less worried about that and just really want to make a great game. I'd rather pick up the most interesting ideas from this forum than the ones most likely to set us apart from MC.

This. You see, this is why I like the game; the developers are less focused on trying to be an alternative towards a billion-dollar IP (Minecraft) and are more focused on building a great quality-of-life game for players. The point of VS (Vintage Story) is to be fun and explore, not necessarily be a rebellious stance against anything. The point of differentiation will come naturally through emergence as the VS devs work on the game, so focusing on "trying to be different than Minecraft" isn't always the best mindset to have for both the developers and players.

[Streetwind]

4 hours ago, David Taylor said:

I thought psj had given up on it after only two vids but I just looked and he's uploaded another one so that's good.

Note that PSJ and other youtubers may not necessarily "give up" on the game due to getting bored. Rather, it depends on the view count that the videos generate. PSJ himself has stated this in the past for other games - saying that he'll not continue a particular series because he cannot afford to keep making videos that are barely being watched.

This is an unfortunate side effect of the Youtube background algorithm. If you want to make a living off of being a content creator, you are reliant on the algorithm recommending your videos to potential new viewers. But if you stop uploading regularly, or if your recently uploaded videos fall below the curve in terms of user enggagement (a complex statistic involving more than just clicks), then Youtube will stop recommending you. Therefore, if PSJ wants to grow his channel further, he must limit himself to upload only videos which draw the maximum amount of viewer engagement. Anything else would actively undermine his own efforts.

In the early days of Youtube, you could make it big just on word of mouth and recording what you like. Nowadays, there are way, way too many people competing for viewer attention to make that a viable method anymore.

Which is why this...

4 hours ago, David Taylor said:

I went looking for other lets plays for this game and the thing I've noticed is that unless the author is quite good they're deadly boring.

...is a much bigger issue in "marketing" Vintage Story via youtubers and streamers than its similarity with Minecraft. I mean sure, there will be some people who will look at it and go "...but this is just Minecraft with mods". I see such comments under every VS video I watch. But does that mean these people actually didn't watch? Or did they? And commenting is a form of user engagement too, as far as the algorithm is concerned.

But if someone clicks on the video, watches five minutes, thinks "this is boring" and leaves without writing a comment, that's really bad for engagement.

And Vintage Story may simply be a game that isn't very "watchable".

You may or may not be surprised to hear that making a game "watchable" is a major concern during game design nowadays. Typically a larger concern than making it fun to play. Battle royales like Fortnite do get a bit repetitive after the hundredth round... but they are very, very watchable by crowds of people who enjoy a streamer goofing off for them. The game would not be half the moneymaker it is today if it wasn't so watchable.

Another recent example: auto-battler type games. Like Riot Games' Teamfight Tactics. The part of the game where stuff happens basically plays itself - it's right there in the name "auto-battler". It would ordinarily be a niche title for a niche audience. But it's supremely watchable in streams. It was, in fact, built from the ground up to be watchable. That is its entire business model. They intentionally made a game that is fun to watch as it plays itself because it makes more money than a game that's actually fun to play.

This is the kind of competition Vintage Story has to face on Youtube and Twitch.

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Streetwind

[David Taylor]

PSJ's latest VS video received a lot of favourable comments, although I have no idea how many likes and comments it takes for "the algorithm" to take notice. Between that and TikTok and google search results, the algs have already won and we're living in a Black Mirror episode just trying to please them

I'm not surprised by what you say about recent game design. I see the mountains of trash pay to win mobile games that flow across my kids' tablets and know that most game design these days is bereft of any merit and is a cynical "copy the last big hit" addiction forming money grabbing excercise. So I stick to Civ V and Minecraft! VS is the first new game I've bought since probably Civ 6 - the Windows 8 of Civ games.

I bought VS mostly because I admire the developer's spirit and the fact it's been designed to be so player friendly in the sense of easy modding, configurable difficulty etc. It's obviously made by a gamer. But I'm enjoying my first world and making the copper saw and shears feels like a big turning point. Now I need lanterns and I'll be set!

I think anyone likely to enjoy VS can easily see the difference between it and Minecraft by watching half of a lets play episode, so I don't think the 'it's just a Minecraft clone' is that big a deal. But I'm not the one trying to make a living from it and the devs might feel differently!

[dakko]

9 hours ago, David Taylor said:

I thought psj had given up on it after only two vids but I just looked and he's uploaded another one so that's good.

PSJ has said that he is enjoying VS so much that he cannot stop playing.

He has an interesting discussion going on twitter about the increasingly short attention span of children/young adults and that being a driving force for what is successful on his channel. Too bad, as he is brilliant when it comes to immersive gameplay and storytelling.

[David Taylor]

Yes, he is really good at bringing essentially empty games like Minecraft alive with the extra "lore" he adds. That's the trouble I have with MC - once I have the auto farms I get bored in the world because I don't play multiplayer. I'd like to play with my kids on a local server but they get bored with it quite quickly. I guess I have to take responsibility for that!

Even pixelriffs, who I think is one of the most pleasant and watchable minecrafters, doesn't do what PSJ does. The epic Minecraft Survival Guide has been bigger and bigger builds and obscure mechanics for about half it's lifespan. The mechanics are interesting but I'm not a fan of "build" videos.

I'm a grumpy old gamer now so I'm pretty annoyed with these kids ruining my hobby